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TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

At least we know that each and every car in a parking structure is guarenteed to use the subway, which means higher ridership.

Parking lots adjacent to subway stations are not going to have truly significant impacts on ridership.

Again, back to the numbers from before, a 3,500 car parking lot/garage would be lucky to provide 5,000 subway riders. That's barely 10% of existing Sheppard ridership or about 20% of the peak capacity for a single hour on the YUS.

By far the biggest source of subway riders comes from feeder buses, not walk-ins or drive-ups.

I thought the intent of the subway stations was to drive nodal development around the stations, not acres of parking.
 
By far the biggest source of subway riders comes from feeder buses, not walk-ins or drive-ups.

Agreed.

I thought the intent of the subway stations was to drive nodal development around the stations, not acres of parking.

I'd say that anchoring the surface feeder routes should be the primary intent of subway, if this is the biggest source of riders. Both the nodal development around the stations and the park-and-ride facilities should be treated as secondary goals.
 
http://www.thestar.com/news/transpo...ves-consulting-arm-to-oversee-sheppard-subway

TTC revives consulting arm to oversee Sheppard subway

Tess Kalinowski Transportation Reporter
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Transportation»

Mayor Rob Ford has woken a long-dormant consulting arm of the TTC to help marshal a public-private partnership to finance and build the Sheppard subway extension.

Toronto Transit Infrastructure Ltd., (formerly Toronto Transit Consultants Ltd.) will be responsible for taking the business case for the Sheppard subway before the federal government to make sure “our business model makes sense,†TTC chair Karen Stintz told the Star.

“Someone just needs to be shepherding through that process and there is nowhere in the TTC that we can do that … so this consulting company has been re-established,†she said.

Although the subway would be financed and built privately, the TTC would operate it, said Stintz.

TTC commissioner Norm Kelly, the city councillor for Scarborough-Agincourt, Doug Ford, councillor for Etobicoke North and former city councillor Gordon Chong were named directors of the TTIL at a special public Toronto Transit Commission meeting early Tuesday.

“New directors will be added with expertise in P3 application,†said Stintz.

Reporters were not allowed into a private TTIL meeting on Tuesday, something that didn’t sit well with some city councillors.

“Unless they’re buying real estate there’s no reason for it to be in private, said Shelley Carroll (Don Valley East), who has been skeptical of the mayor’s plans to harness private capital to finance and build the subway he wants to run west to the Downsview subway station and east to Scarborough Town Centre.

Former TTC chair Adam Giambrone said the Ford plan “would only extend the current overbuilt white elephant†on Sheppard.

“It would spend all the money available for transit improvements in other parts of the city that really need better transit,†he added.

Giambrone was also skeptical of the TTIL role, saying, “their participation would likely only be for the purposes of creating the illusion of increased private participation.â€

“The last subway built by the TTC was over 92 per cent built by the private sector. Therefore a real P3 would only moderately increase private participation. It is, however, unlikely to decrease costs due to profit-taking and higher borrowing costs from a non-government entity,†Giambrone told the Star.

The latest step in Ford’s transportation plan comes even though the provincial transit funding agency Metrolinx hasn’t signed off on the scheme.

Ford’s proposal calls for the city to build and own the $4.5 billion Sheppard subway project.

That would leave the $8.15 billion in provincial transit funding to pay for underground light rail on Eglinton from Jane St. to Kennedy station. The remainder of those funds would be devoted to converting the Scarborough RT to light rail or subway and possibly boosting bus service on Finch Ave. West.

Ottawa has committed about $300 million to a light rail line on Sheppard Ave. East, but according to Metrolinx spokesperson Vanessa Thomas, “It is our understanding that the federal government would be responsible to make the decision on how it reallocates funding if the Sheppard East LRT project does not proceed as planned.â€

Although no details have been released, it’s believed Ford’s subway scheme would use a combination of development charges and tax increment financing.

But one city hall source noted that when former mayor David Miller’s administration explored similar schemes, it was found that it would be necessary to build 54,000 condos along the subway to raise $1 billion that way.

TTCL was formed in the 1970s as an organization through which TTC staff could consult with other transit agencies on the Scarborough RT technology, considered a major rail innovation at the time. It also provided consulting services to the Toronto Zoo after a monorail accident in 1994.

It was disbanded after the 1995 Russell Hill subway derailment, when “the TTC concluded it was too busy with its normal business,†said TTC chief general manager Gary Webster, who attended Tuesday’s special commission meeting.

The TTC is not bound by its decisions, said transit spokesman Brad Ross.
 
I'm not saying that the sheppard subway should become a GO train line, I'm saying that the two stations where it interfaces with highways, it should have a large and easy to use parking lot for commuters to switch modes of travel.

They already did this at Don Mills station so the only other one that should be built is Scarborough Town Centre!

I am guessing Agincourt GO will also have a parking lot but I don't think that station will have too many cars in it outside rush hour.

Scarborough Town Centre has the potential to be far better than today's Yorkdale (in terms of mutli modal transit hub). A parking garage somewhere along the line will surely help!

For example, it can be placed at progress station instead of the actual terminus. This same practice has been used for the spadina extension (407 car/VCC bus only) and yonge extension (langstaff car/RHC bus only) so the same idea can be used here as well...

Point is...cars are here to stay, how can we best integrate them into our future transit mix?
 
What impact might this have on traffic jams along the 401?

Perhaps what we need to alleviate 401 traffic and promote public transit is by having an elevated LRT or commuter rail running down the median of the 401 from the Airport to STC, with sheltered station stops spaced at every hwy exit corresponding to the major arterial streets. It would provide a rapid cross-town route that could be used by commuters spanning the entire city and even outside the city.

Using the 401 ROW means no tunneling (as opposed to Sheppard), which means less costs. Commuter rail will take up the two lanes of 401 express but will be cheap; elevated LRT won't take up any more lanes but will cost a bit more.

Rapid transit running along express-ways works in the GTA: Allen Rd, HOV/ bus lanes on the on DVP, and soon BRT on 407 and 403.

Not all transit needs to be downtown focused.

Just a thought.... not to take anything away from Eglinton though.
 
honestly, i duno why the sheppard line is such a big deal...i would rather have the downtown relief line built first to relief congestion at bloor/yonge station...but mr. ford has already spoken and wants the sheppard to be built asap...sigh...
 
honestly, i duno why the sheppard line is such a big deal...i would rather have the downtown relief line built first to relief congestion at bloor/yonge station...but mr. ford has already spoken and wants the sheppard to be built asap...sigh...
It's a big deal because it's going to cost $5-billion to build something that could instead be built for $1-billion. It's provides a capacity 6 times higher than the projected ridership a quarter-century from now.

It's an absolutely huge waste of money. It's everything that Ford campaigned against.

So Ford has spoken ... the man is a pathological liar. His word means little.
 
It's a big deal because it's going to cost $5-billion to build something that could instead be built for $1-billion. It's provides a capacity 6 times higher than the projected ridership a quarter-century from now.

It's an absolutely huge waste of money. It's everything that Ford campaigned against.

So Ford has spoken ... the man is a pathological liar. His word means little.

Right? I mean what the hell...just like u said, its a huge waste of money...barely anyone takes the sheppard line...seriously, besarion station is like a ghost station to me...
 
Bessarion station will look like Union (at least after the redevelopment is finished) compared to some of the other proposed stations east of Victoria Park ... or the 3 proposed stations between Yonge and Downsview.

Maybe in the 2050s this line will start to see some ridership ... but good grief, if we're going to spend this kind of money now, let's spend it on something useful. We could build 5 major surface LRT lines for what Ford wants to flush down the toilet on Sheppard.
 
Perhaps what we need to alleviate 401 traffic and promote public transit is by having an elevated LRT or commuter rail running down the median of the 401 from the Airport to STC, with sheltered station stops spaced at every hwy exit corresponding to the major arterial streets. It would provide a rapid cross-town route that could be used by commuters spanning the entire city and even outside the city.

- There is no median in the 401 in which to run a rail line.
- There is no room to put stations in the middle of the 401.
- There is no where within walking distance of 401 stations people want to go to (and no where to build bus interchanges).
- There is little demand to go from STC to the airport.
 
Bessarion station will look like Union (at least after the redevelopment is finished) compared to some of the other proposed stations east of Victoria Park ... or the 3 proposed stations between Yonge and Downsview.

That's a bit of an overstatement. Bathurst / Sheppard station = major connecting route + a highrise + plaza + access to Earl Bales park, would certainly beat Bessarion, Bayview, and Leslie stations, trailing only Don Mills and Yonge.

Even Faywood station would probably beat Bessarion.
 
IMO the "BIG DEAL" about Sheppard is that people believe that with a Subway magically there will be no more congestion on the 16 lane 401. These people I would suggest believe that if it cost X billion of dolars it would be well worth it since it will reduce traffic on their daily commute. However how many of these people would actually take transit. IMO opinion its more likely these car drivers are going to continue to drive and wonder to themselves why the cars beside them and in front of them arent taking the Subway.. Obviously the answer is simple. Its not even that the subway doesnt go from front door to work door. Its that people are addicted to their cars and its relatively cheap to drive in our country.

Make tranist FREE and make Driving as expensive as Europe 2.50 LETRE and incorporate a Vehicle Tax like Holland or Asia where you pay up to 50% of tax based on the vehicles price (ex. A car cost 100,000 then there would be an added 50,000 of tax making the total cost 150000 ) and transporation patterns will change... Of course our dreams of MCmansions with white picket fences will have to change to but thats a whole other story.
 
Rather than artificially increasing the cost of driving (other than the gradual rise in gas prices), why can't we just make transit cheaper?

Why does the cost of everything else have to rise to make transit more attractive?

Why can't we have a referrendum on a transit regional sales tax like they do in the United States? Measure R in Southern California is surely doing wonders and putting Toronto to shame!

I would be happy to pay an extra 0.5% or even 1% if I knew that transit fares were 2.00 cash, 1.50 token, $60 Metropass... Who wouldn't?

Leave the car as it is, add fees to roads if necessary (dvp/gardiner), and make transit cheaper...
 
Rather than artificially increasing the cost of driving (other than the gradual rise in gas prices), why can't we just make transit cheaper?

It's not artifial. The taxes in Europe and Asia are high because drivers pay for the cost of roads. In North America, income and property tax pays for the majority of the roads.

From strictly a financial perspective even the UK ($9/gallon gas) is short since road policing, ambulance, and other emergcy services for road related issues still come from general funding (income tax).


I don't have an issue with further subsidies to transit (some, like our current Mayor certainly do) but don't be mistaken into thinking driving is currently self-sufficient in any part of Canada.
 

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