TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[accura407]

I really like your idea. If we were to utilize the elevated guideway as ROW for Sheppard subway, it'd be possible for that line to replicate what the Scarborough LRT was going to do through eastern Scarborough. Here's a quick illustration of how we could merge the two plans:

Per this scheme the Sheppard East LRT really isn't needed and BRT could suffice. And with elevation primarily used south of Sheppard and northeast of Tapscott, construction costs would be significantly less expensive.

Your map is pretty good - I guess it was roughly the same idea i had in mind but I was so busy i didn't put much effort into making it more detailed. I agree, a subway past Malvern is not necessary. I think that should be the end point as it is a pretty good node to work with.

I think if we could aim to make the subway reach STC using this alignment, costs would drop significantly because tunneling would be over after Kennedy Station, the rest is at grade (adjacent to GO ROW) or elevated to STC.

If we combined this alignment with the Glen Murray subway alignment, we could have the B-D line and the Sheppard line interline together to reach STC. Would be awesome.

Everything in this plan is totally doable, nothing is "out there" but I have little faith anything pragmatic and realistic will be done so I put it into the "fantasy" segment....sadly

 

[Johnny Au]

If it goes to Morningside Heights, then there should be one going to the Zoo (or a BRT can work).

 

[Hopkins123]

Massive gap right in Agincourt on Sheppard. Arguably the densest part of the corridor in Scarborough. How would they be served?

Using the SRT ROW is useless. The old SRT stations were all but useless. The ones that are useful will become subway stops anyway. And there's no need to take the subway up to Morningside Heights.

The subway would serve the densest area though (from Warden to Agincourt GO). East of Kennedy, west of Progress is primarily industrial lands. Where it's not (McCowan), the Bloor-Danforth extension would intercept Sheppard Avenue. A re-imagined route 190 using artics could offer express bus service through this stretch to the Zoo or Rouge Hill GO.

And I only suggest Morningside Heights as the terminus because five bus routes converge in this area, particularly the Finch bus. But admittedly, Malvern Town Centre would be a decent terminus also.

 

[kEiThZ]

The subway would serve the densest area though (from Warden to Agincourt GO). East of Kennedy, west of Progress is primarily industrial lands. Where it's not (McCowan), the Bloor-Danforth extension would intercept Sheppard Avenue. A re-imagined route 190 using artics could offer express bus service through this stretch to the Zoo or Rouge Hill GO.

And I only suggest Morningside Heights as the terminus because five bus routes converge in this area, particularly the Finch bus. But admittedly, Malvern Town Centre would be a decent terminus also.

The whole point of LRT is to get rid of the costs of running buses on these busy routes. Your plan would require the maintenance of a parallel bus service. And there's quite a bit of density from Warden till Brimley. Are you seriously suggesting there's more density between say Pharmacy and Warden on Sheppard than say from Birchmount to Midland? Must be the Red Lobster! In general, the subway will be pointless now that the Bloor-Danforth is running north till Sheppard. This means riders from the East will take the BD to the core, instead of taking the Sheppard line to transfer at Yonge. But if you insist on a subway extension, then turning the subway south is also pointless. A good chunk of any subway ridership in this area comes from bus transfers. And in this part of the city, going forward, many of those transferees will be coming from Markham. Yet, you'd make it harder for them to access the system just to serve Midland station? Save the money. Simply keep the alignment straight and have a transfer station at McCowan. Whoever needs to go to SC will transfer for a stop. It'll also make for a great hub with two subway lines terminating there.

Also, my parents live in Morningside Heights. 5 bus routes. Sure. That's because roads converge there. It's a normal subdivision though. Nothing special. Pointless to put a hub there. Especially when Malvern Town Centre is a natural hub for the neighbourhood. Not just the retail. But the medical buildings, old age homes, high school and higher density housing all surrounding it.

This also shows LRT is more sensible on Sheppard now that BD is coming north to Sheppard. It allows for branching. A Malvern branch that follows the hydro corridor as planned and can be run north on Neilson till Morningside Heights. A branch going to zoo. Maybe even a branch going south on Morningside to UT Scarborough.

 

[nfitz]

150 meter trains vs 90 meter trains.

The trains on the Sheppard line are 92 metres long. Does that make the Sheppard subway an LRT?

 

[innsertnamehere]

no, it just makes them lighter than traditional subway trains.

Light Rail Transit more so stands for lighter passenger loads than actual weights. its a pretty shitty name really, ICTS is a better name but that was sadly taken already. (intermediate capacity transportation system)

 

[salsa]

Not only was ICTS taken, the name was also tarnished thanks to the SRT that everyone hates.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm surprised with the new revenue suggestions that Norm Kelly has not pushed for the completion of sheppard.

 

[Rainforest]

I bet you don't take the Sheppard line often, and certainly not off-peak.

It may have low ridership and poor cost-recovery ratio, but visually it does not appear underused or deserted most of the time; weekday or weekend. You will see quite a few people on the trains and inside the Don Mills station.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I bet you don't take the Sheppard line often, and certainly not off-peak.

It may have low ridership and poor cost-recovery ratio, but visually it does not appear underused or deserted most of the time; weekday or weekend. You will see quite a few people on the trains and inside the Don Mills station.

I suppose it depends on when exactly, but when I was on the subway last month there was easily enough room for all the people to fit on a bus. Maybe 30 to 40 passengers were on board (a really generous estimation), and that was about 7 PM on a Friday night.

At the same time, Yonge Line trains were standing room only.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Y

Oh I completely agree. The SUBWAYS we need are as follows:

1. to finish Sheppard to STC
2. to finish Danforth to STC
3. to extend Sheppard to Downsview
4. Build the DRL from Dundas West to Union to Pape to Sheppard via Don Mills
5. Build the Eglinton line from Weston to Laird (Phase I)
6. Extend Yonge to RHC
7. Extend Bloor to MCC

I'm curious about the potential of a Sheppard-Finch northern crosstown LRT line. Basically replace the Sheppard Subway with underground LRT, extended the LRT east from Don Mills to Malvern via STC, and extend the LRT west at grade from Yonge to Keele/Finch to connect with FWLRT at Finch West Station. West of Yonge it could take advantage of the geography to have limited traffic lights.

 

[Dan416]

Y


I'm curious about the potential of a Sheppard-Finch northern crosstown LRT line. Basically replace the Sheppard Subway with underground LRT, extended the LRT east from Don Mills to Malvern via STC, and extend the LRT west at grade from Yonge to Keele/Finch to connect with FWLRT at Finch West Station. West of Yonge it could take advantage of the geography to have limited traffic lights.

I really think any talk of a converting Sheppard is a non-starter.

If you want a northern crosstown LRT, you might as well put the whole thing along Finch.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I really think any talk of a converting Sheppard is a non-starter.

If you want a northern crosstown LRT, you might as well put the whole thing along Finch.

Why is that? TTC determined it was possible and would cost $700 Million (maybe $1 Billion with inflation). With eastern and western extensions, this would deliver much better connectivity to users of the Sheppard Subway, while significantly reducing trip times east of Don Mills.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I really think any talk of a converting Sheppard is a non-starter.

If you want a northern crosstown LRT, you might as well put the whole thing along Finch.

Why is that? TTC determined it was possible and would cost $700 Million (maybe $1 Billion with inflation). With eastern and western extensions, this would deliver much better connectivity to users of the Sheppard Subway, while significantly reducing trip times east of Don Mills.

For reference, here is a map of what I'm talking about:

Blue: At grade
Brown: Underground
Orange: Elevated

The section between Keele and Yonge would have a limited number of traffic lights, which is why I think it's fine being at grade though that section. Notice that is uses West Donland Park to connect Finch West to Sheppard West. Between Yonge and Don Mills, the Sheppard Subway is converted to underground LRT. Then East of Don Mills the line is elevated to Scarborough Centre, because there are a lot of traffic lights between Don Mills and McCowan. East of Scarborough Centre to Malvern, it's at grade using the Transit City right-of-way.

The big negative here is the conversion of the Sheppard Subway to underground LRT. Would cost around $700 Million and necessitate a shutdown for a period of time. But users of the line would be getting enormously improved connectivity, that I think that the shutdown would be well worth it.

The Sheppard Subway proposal had peak ridership of around 7,000 pphpd. It's difficult to justify paying the price of an underground subway extension with that ridership, but I think the cheaper elevated eastward extension could be justified. This section east of Don Mills would have higher peak ridership than the Eglinton Crosstown, if those projections are accurate.

The section west of Yonge would link the FWLRT with the Yonge line, letting those commuters have a transfer-free ride to Yonge.

 

[Palma]

For reference, here is a map of what I'm talking about:

Blue: At grade
Brown: Underground
Orange: Elevated

The section between Keele and Yonge would have a limited number of traffic lights, which is why I think it's fine being at grade though that section. Notice that is uses West Donland Park to connect Finch West to Sheppard West. Between Yonge and Don Mills, the Sheppard Subway is converted to underground LRT. Then East of Don Mills the line is elevated to Scarborough Centre, because there are a lot of traffic lights between Don Mills and McCowan. East of Scarborough Centre to Malvern, it's at grade using the Transit City right-of-way.

The big negative here is the conversion of the Sheppard Subway to underground LRT. Would cost around $700 Million and necessitate a shutdown for a period of time. But users of the line would be getting enormously improved connectivity, that I think that the shutdown would be well worth it.

The Sheppard Subway proposal had peak ridership of around 7,000 pphpd. It's difficult to justify paying the price of an underground subway extension with that ridership, but I think the cheaper elevated eastward extension could be justified. This section east of Don Mills would have higher peak ridership than the Eglinton Crosstown, if those projections are accurate.

The section west of Yonge would link the FWLRT with the Yonge line, letting those commuters have a transfer-free ride to Yonge.

what about sheppard west LRT? Would there be anything? sheppard does end at Weston does it not?