TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[nfitz]

Really bugs me that BRT wasn't even considered. I mean, it would be one thing if it was considered and then ruled out for legitimate reasons, but to not even look at it?

What do you mean? They did look at BRT extensively! There's an entire section of the EA that discusses LRT versus BRT, concluding that the only way BRT would work would be to provide dedicated lanes (because you'll be pushing limit on what you can do without dedicated lanes ... the forecast demand is higher than any existing route), and the killer was that you'd have to widen Sheppard more for the BRT than you would for LRT, that was not in keeping with the pedestrian objectives of the corridor.

The current report is simply responding to Milczyn's October 2012 request on "the merits and feasibility of completing a subway loop from Sheppard and McCowan to Sheppard and Don Mills". The report does do that. It also notes that the TTC had transferred decision-making authority to Metrolinx on the issue, and that it's not actually feasible for TTC to direct a change in technology at this time.

 

[gweed123]

What do you mean? They did look at BRT extensively! There's an entire section of the EA that discusses LRT versus BRT, concluding that the only way BRT would work would be to provide dedicated lanes (because you'll be pushing limit on what you can do without dedicated lanes ... the forecast demand is higher than any existing route), and the killer was that you'd have to widen Sheppard more for the BRT than you would for LRT, that was not in keeping with the pedestrian objectives of the corridor.

The current report is simply responding to Milczyn's October 2012 request on "the merits and feasibility of completing a subway loop from Sheppard and McCowan to Sheppard and Don Mills". The report does do that. It also notes that the TTC had transferred decision-making authority to Metrolinx on the issue, and that it's not actually feasible for TTC to direct a change in technology at this time.

Well yeah, without dedicated lanes it's not really BRT. And I really don't get where this "you'd need to widen it more for BRT than for LRT" comes from (well I do, but I don't see why it's a deal-breaker). The LRT median ROW is what, 6m (2x3m)? The standard BRT lane is 3.6m, at least that's what's being used in Durham (http://www.durhambrt.ca/march-30-es...es ESR-Section II-Preferred Design Sheets.pdf). The ROW for Kingston Rd doesn't seem all that different from Sheppard East.

And I find it quite odd that an option that could potentially cost $600 million less was tossed out because it didn't meet the "pedestrian objectives". Sounds like a bit of a flimsy rationale to me.

And with regards to your 2nd point: if the purpose of the report was to determine the merits of completing the subway loop, why did the SRT section of the report examine BRT (and at-grade LRT) as potential options, but the Sheppard part of it didn't even mention BRT other than in the capacity graphic? If it was subway vs LRT, why was BRT brought up at all in the 2nd part of the report?

 

[nfitz]

And I find it quite odd that an option that could potentially cost $600 million less was tossed out because it didn't meet the "pedestrian objectives". Sounds like a bit of a flimsy rationale to me.

$600 million less? The EA established the savings was only $20 million per kilometre for above-ground. The LRT is only 12-km long. Save $250 million perhaps .... though I don't know how you'd build from Don Mills station to Consumer Drive ... that would likely require either widening the Sheppard bridge, or building a new span

And with regards to your 2nd point: if the purpose of the report was to determine the merits of completing the subway loop, why did the SRT section of the report examine BRT (and at-grade LRT) as potential options, but the Sheppard part of it didn't even mention BRT other than in the capacity graphic? If it was subway vs LRT, why was BRT brought up at all in the 2nd part of the report?

There's only the briefest of mentions of buses in the 2nd part of the report, and that's only when it's summarizing the work done in 2008 Strategic Plan that already calculated the subway vs. LRT costs. The Sheppard East EA might have previously broken out BRT versus LRT costs, but it had tossed subway out of consideration before getting into that level of detail, so there was no point referring to it in this new report, as it didn't answer the subway versus LRT question.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Still think the bloor subway should be extended, but alas, it cannot be.

Why not? Run it to Malvern town centre

Really bugs me that BRT wasn't even considered. I mean, it would be one thing if it was considered and then ruled out for legitimate reasons, but to not even look at it? Pisses me off.

EDIT: Ironically BRT was actually studied as an option for the SRT replacement, where clearly it would make no sense. So the only place in the entire report where BRT is even mentioned is in a place where clearly it makes no sense at all and was added in as a "look! we considered a bunch of options!". But in a place where it could actually be the preferred choice if it was actually studied? Yeah, don't need it there.

Because it's not sexy

 

[Voltz]

Well yeah, without dedicated lanes it's not really BRT. And I really don't get where this "you'd need to widen it more for BRT than for LRT" comes from (well I do, but I don't see why it's a deal-breaker). The LRT median ROW is what, 6m (2x3m)? The standard BRT lane is 3.6m, at least that's what's being used in Durham (http://www.durhambrt.ca/march-30-es...es ESR-Section II-Preferred Design Sheets.pdf). The ROW for Kingston Rd doesn't seem all that different from Sheppard East.

By wider ROW they meant there would need to be passing lanes at stops resulting in a five lane wide ROW at intersections which there is no room for.

I can only imagine the war on the car cries that would be made if an LRT ROW was that wide.

 

[gweed123]

$600 million less? The EA established the savings was only $20 million per kilometre for above-ground. The LRT is only 12-km long. Save $250 million perhaps .... though I don't know how you'd build from Don Mills station to Consumer Drive ... that would likely require either widening the Sheppard bridge, or building a new span

East of McCowan all you'd need is queue jump lanes, because ridership drops off a cliff around there. That's almost 6km of LRT that you don't need to build. Just less than half. And the biggest expense when it comes to the LRT is the tunnel to Consumers, which wouldn't need to be built.

The 404 overpass is a concern, but there are ways to get around it. The most obvious one is you let the BRT run in mixed traffic from Yorkland to Fairview Mall. You put in queue jump lanes (which are really just the end of the dedicated lanes), and then give the buses queued there signal priority so they can get through the intersection and over the bridge before general traffic is allowed through the intersection. Not ideal, but it would work.

Ottawa just instituted something similar at the intersection of Heron and the Bronson off-ramp. There are dedicated bus lanes to the west of the intersection, but the buses heading eastbound need to get from the right lane to the left lane quickly, so before each green for eastbound traffic, there's an advanced bus signal so the bus can go through the intersection and cross 2 lanes of traffic to turn left. It works pretty well.

Anyways, back to Sheppard. Dropping the tunnel and only building queue jump lanes on the eastern half of the ROW could easily save between $500 and $600 million. Yes it's definitely trimmed down compared to the LRT plan, but that's all Sheppard East really needs, especially if you start using articulated buses.

 

[nfitz]

By wider ROW they meant there would need to be passing lanes at stops resulting in a five lane wide ROW at intersections which there is no room for.

Correct. The discussion in the text was that you'd need to have Express buses with that kind of demand, and to do so you'd need passing lanes at stations. Something more on the scale of the Ottawa transitway.

Anyways, back to Sheppard. Dropping the tunnel and only building queue jump lanes on the eastern half of the ROW could easily save between $500 and $600 million. Yes it's definitely trimmed down compared to the LRT plan, but that's all Sheppard East really needs, especially if you start using articulated buses.

It might be all you need to deal with 2012 traffic and demand. But remember the whole reason-to-be for Transit City was to deal with the forecast gridlock on arterial roads like Sheppard in 2031.

 

[gweed123]

By wider ROW they meant there would need to be passing lanes at stops resulting in a five lane wide ROW at intersections which there is no room for.

I can only imagine the war on the car cries that would be made if an LRT ROW was that wide.

Passing lanes? Wow, what a joke. You don't need a passing lane when you're carrying 3,100 pphpd. You need a passing lane? Use the general lane next to it. Ottawa seemed to have figured that out a long time ago, not sure why the TTC feels that's needed. If that's the reason why BRT was discounted, that makes me even more upset, because they used a BRT standard they didn't even need, and then discounted it because it was too extensive.

EDIT: For what I mean when "Ottawa figured that out a long time ago" is that for shoulder bus lane sections of the Transitway (ex: Woodroffe between Navaho and Hunt Club) there are 3 types of overlapping routes: regular routes, Transitway routes, and Express routes, all using the same bus lane. When an express bus needs to pass another bus, they simply pull out into the rightmost general traffic lane, pass the stopped bus, and then pull back into the buses only lane. Hardly rocket science, and hardly worthy of a passing lane.

PS: That section of Woodroffe carries more pphpd now than Sheppard is projected to carry in 2031.

 

[nfitz]

Passing lanes? Wow, what a joke. You don't need a passing lane when you're carrying 3,100 pphpd. You need a passing lane? Use the general lane next to it. Ottawa seemed to have figured that out a long time ago, not sure why the TTC feels that's needed.

Then why was Ottawa proposing passing lanes for new Transitway stations on the Cumberland Transitway, even though the projected ridership is only 4,400 pphpd.

Use the general lane on an express bus, at a congested, grid-locked intersection? I can see that working well ... would be faster to simply run behind the local bus.

 

[gweed123]

Then why was Ottawa proposing passing lanes for new Transitway stations on the Cumberland Transitway, even though the projected ridership is only 4,400 pphpd.

Use the general lane on an express bus, at a congested, grid-locked intersection? I can see that working well ... would be faster to simply run behind the local bus.

Because that's a full Transitway, not a shoulder bus lane. It's designed to handle up to 10,000 pphpd. Just take a look at Woodroffe, which carries about the same (~4,000 pphpd). Shoulder bus lanes with no passing lanes. It's been configured so that all of the stations are far-side stations.

You can have both an Express bus and a Transitway bus queued up at the same intersection, and they both get an advanced green. Even if the Transitway bus is first in line, it can pull up to the station, and the Express bus has enough time and room to jump into the right general traffic lane after passing through the intersection (because all other traffic is still at the red), pass the Transitway bus, and then jump back into the buses only lane.

 

[nfitz]

Because that's a full Transitway, not a shoulder bus lane. It's designed to handle up to 10,000 pphpd.

Even though the 2031 ridership is closer to 4,000?

Just take a look at Woodroffe, which carries about the same (~4,000 pphpd). Shoulder bus lanes with no passing lanes. It's been configured so that all of the stations are far-side stations.

Through the Central Experimental Farm on a major road with few stops, little residential, a concrete median, and paved shoulders?? It looks more like Highway 27 than it looks like Sheppard East.

And if so successful, why are they talking about putting in a dedicated transitway - http://ottawa.ca/en/major-projects/...it/southwest-transitway-extension-baseline-rd

 

[gweed123]

Even though the 2031 ridership is closer to 4,000?

Through the Central Experimental Farm on a major road with few stops, little residential, a concrete median, and paved shoulders?? It looks more like Highway 27 than it looks like Sheppard East.

That's further down Woodroffe. They've already built a Transitway right beside it. The section I'm talking about is between just south of Baseline Station, and just south of Hunt Club. Very suburban arterial.

And if so successful, why are they talking about putting in a dedicated transitway - http://ottawa.ca/en/major-projects/...it/southwest-transitway-extension-baseline-rd

The reason they're putting in a Transitway on that short stretch (which isn't going to bypass all of the shoulder lanes, by the way, less than 1/3 of it actually) is because of the changes that are being made at Baseline Station in order to accommodate the eventual LRT. The new Algonquin College building is sitting on the site of the old Baseline Station, and they have a temporary one directly to the west, and a new underground one underneath the building.

The reason they need that Transitway stretch is because the underground station is an intermodal facility, so both buses and LRT trains will be using it. Because it's underground they need a portal on the south side so buses can exit. The plan you linked to above is the lead-up to that portal. The long-term plan is to have all of that eventually converted to LRT, hence the complete grade separation (same reason why the Cumberland BRT is being built to such high standards, for easy conversion to LRT).

If you want another example, Ottawa is planning on putting in dedicated shoulder lanes along Baseline Rd: http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-consultations/baseline-road-transit-intensive-corridor. A little bit more residential in most places than Sheppard East, but still pretty comparable. Shoulder bus lanes on a major suburban arterial that will require a road widening.

 

[nfitz]

That's further down Woodroffe. They've already built a Transitway right beside it. The section I'm talking about is between just south of Baseline Station, and just south of Hunt Club. Very suburban arterial.

Looking just south of Hunt Club in Streetview ... it's farm on one side ... and 1 story light industrial on the other. Not a residential unit in site. Looking south of Baseline at Navaho ... very light. There's no way that this corridor is generating 1,000s of riders per hour. If there are thousands of trips an hour, they are beginning and ending somewhere else, and simply being express bused through here.

Personally I haven't driven down there in decades ... but I can't believe that road is carrying the kind of traffic that Sheppard East is, either. It currently maps completely green in Google Maps Traffic at 5:30 pm while I can see yellow and red on Sheppard East.

So you neither have frequent stops with lots of passengers, nor do you have much road congestion. It doesn't look at all comparable.

I bet by 2031 they'll have a full Transitway down that road too ...

 

[gweed123]

Looking just south of Hunt Club in Streetview ... it's farm on one side ... and 1 story light industrial on the other. Not a residential unit in site. Looking south of Baseline at Navaho ... very light. There's no way that this corridor is generating 1,000s of riders per hour. If there are thousands of trips an hour, they are beginning and ending somewhere else, and simply being express bused through here.

Personally I haven't driven down there in decades ... but I can't believe that road is carrying the kind of traffic that Sheppard East is, either. It currently maps completely green in Google Maps Traffic at 5:30 pm while I can see yellow and red on Sheppard East.

Look at Woodroffe and Majestic or Woodroffe and Knoxdale. South of Hunt Club is the Greenbelt, and the stuff you're seeing at Hunt Club is a High School and the Nepean Sportsplex.

A lot of the ridership is coming from Barrhaven via the Transitway, but that corridor generates a fair bit on it's own. There's residential subdivisions on either side of it. During rush hour it's normally quite packed.

A lot of the corridor's ridership is also generated by Algonquin College.

Another thing is aside from one place along the line, the west side of the road has a transit ROW reserved. That's why it looks 'empty'. You can clearly see it with the satellite view.

So you neither have frequent stops with lots of passengers, nor do you have much road congestion. It doesn't look at all comparable.

Those are pretty big assumptions to make from a Google Earth examination . The pinch points along Woodroffe are from Baseline to the Queensway, and at Hunt Club.

That route carries 2 Transitway routes, 4 or 5 Express routes, and a handful of local routes. It's very busy. During rush hour there's buses every 2 to 3 minutes.

I bet by 2031 they'll have a full Transitway down that road too ...

It's a trunk Transitway route, so it's possible. I think they're going to wait for the LRT to upgrade the whole corridor though.

EDIT: Traffic volume data for Woodroffe between Baseline and the 417: Currently, about 40,000 vehicles-per-day use this section of Woodroffe Avenue. During the morning peak hour 2,400 vehicles-per hour (vph) are heading northbound toward Hwy 417. During the afternoon peak hour there are approximately 1,750 vph travelling in each direction.

Here's a map I found online showing traffic counts (http://www.toronto.ca/transportation/publications/brochures/24hourvolumemap.pdf): Sheppard East between the 404 and Victoria Park carried 38,688 vehicles per day in 2006 (most recent data I could find).

Sounds pretty similar to me...

 

[nfitz]

EDIT: Traffic volume data for Woodroffe between Baseline and the 417: Currently, about 40,000 vehicles-per-day use this section of Woodroffe Avenue. During the morning peak hour 2,400 vehicles-per hour (vph) are heading northbound toward Hwy 417. During the afternoon peak hour there are approximately 1,750 vph travelling in each direction.

Here's a map I found online showing traffic counts (http://www.toronto.ca/transportation/publications/brochures/24hourvolumemap.pdf): Sheppard East between the 404 and Victoria Park carried 38,688 vehicles per day in 2006 (most recent data I could find).

Sounds pretty similar to me...

Hang on - your comparing the piece of Woodroffe where they DID build a Transitway, to the piece of Sheppard, where they decided they couldn't put the LRT on surface, and are tunelling it? Move further south on Woodroffe, and east on Sheppard.

Visually, just doesn't look the same. Around Majestic and Knoxdale, I just see low density. The best I see is a single 3-story small office building. And not a pedestrian in site walking along Woodroffe. Looking at Sheppard East near Pharmacy, I see high-rises, pedestrians, etc. Ditto near Birchmount.

Perhaps it's more similiar to east of McCowan and especially east of Markham. But that's not really why we are building the LRT, is it.