TTC: Queens Quay East BRT (Unofficial proposal)

[Rainforest]

Closing Bay St. to car traffic is a non starter. Where is bus route 6 supposed to go? The GO buses going to Union Station GO Bus Terminal all use part of Bay as well, where are they supposed to be moved to?

Bus route 6 would no longer operate south of Bloor, it would not be needed there if frequent streetcar service exists. The short section of # 6 north of Bloor could be combined with #26 Dupont, or with #127 Davenport.

Obviously, some arrangement would have to be made for the GO buses to access the terminal; they would either travel in the streetcar lane, or be given a short dedicated bus lane at the expense of pedestrian space, but only for a short section of Bay.

I realize that converting Bay to transit mall is a hard sell in this city. But that's only because it is hard to change the way of thinking / perception. There are no physical obstacles, or prohibitively expensive engineering tasks involved.

 

[nfitz]

I realize that converting Bay to transit mall is a hard sell in this city. But that's only because it is hard to change the way of thinking / perception.

Do you have to convert Bay to a transit mall to put in 2 dedicated streetcar lanes?

Currently pedestrians on Bay in either direction use both the teamway, and the sidewalk next to relatively generous 2 road lanes. I'm not sure why pedestrians ever use the sidewalk compared to the much more pleasant teamway - perhaps they lock it at night?

Is there any reason that the pedestrians all use the teamway, and the sidewalk, and perhaps a bit of road, be used for a streetcar ROW on each side, still leaving 4 traffic lanes (perhaps slightly narrowed if necessary)?

 

[44 North]

There are some things I'm not getting. If people would like to fill me in, it'd be much appreciated.

1. When the original plan was for a QQ East LRT; was this for an actual LRT, or a plain streetcar line in an ROW?

2. If the major hurdle with LRT was the large cost of widening the tunnel from Bay, why the heck can't they just opt for streetcars instead and not widen? Or just have a loop near Bay, and have streetcars enter from King via Cherry?

3. So without the tunnel costs, why is this Queens Quay East streetcar still such a costly project? ALL the roads south of Lake Shore between Yonge and Parliament are to have MAJOR capital works regardless of what transit is chosen. Sewers, hydro, communications, new alignments...the works. What costs so much about adding tracks/foundations/ROW curbs when the road will be completely gutted anyway? IMO the cost shouldn't be more than $25M in this scenario - a number easily covered by small development charges.

I can understand the decision to operate buses on account of the low ridership for the near or medium term. But at least have the groundwork for streetcars so that when all the buildings in East Bayfront are occupied, the switch to streetcars can be made.

Really, $25M is what I believe this QQ East streetcar should cost. Not a cent more.

 

[nfitz]

There are some things I'm not getting. If people would like to fill me in, it'd be much appreciated.

1. When the original plan was for a QQ East LRT; was this for an actual LRT, or a plain streetcar line in an ROW?

Not sure what you mean. Same plan on QQ East, as QQ West. Which is LRT (streetcars).

2. If the major hurdle with LRT was the large cost of widening the tunnel from Bay, why the heck can't they just opt for streetcars instead and not widen? Or just have a loop near Bay, and have streetcars enter from King via Cherry?

It's not the width of the tunnel that's the issue. It's the capacity of the platforms. It can barely handle the load from Queens Quay West. Adding cars from QQ East would kill it ... you'd need a separate platform (like Broadview station has).

3. So without the tunnel costs, why is this Queens Quay East streetcar still such a costly project? ALL the roads south of Lake Shore between Yonge and Parliament are to have MAJOR capital works regardless of what transit is chosen. Sewers, hydro, communications, new alignments...the works. What costs so much about adding tracks/foundations/ROW curbs when the road will be completely gutted anyway? IMO the cost shouldn't be more than $25M in this scenario - a number easily covered by small development charges.

I don't think it is much more than that for just the track, etc. But there's other costs. A hydro substation. And what about the streetcars themselves? There's 6 streetcars in the budget papers for this route. That's $30-million right there.

Really, $25M is what I believe this QQ East streetcar should cost. Not a cent more.

So you can buy 5 of the 6 required streetcars. But no track ...

 

[44 North]

Well, are they planning to use Transit City LRT or plain streetcars? Or is it only streetcars for Cherry, and LRT for QQ?

Re: costs for streetcars. Couldn't we just use our current ones, or run some of the new fleet down there? That should be no added cost to the capital side of things.
IMO, the hydro substation will have to be built at some point eventually. Might as well do it now while the land is vacant. Again, the costs should be separate from the streetcar line and be carried by the City.

 

[DKsan]

It supposed to be the new legacy streetcars for the entire route.

Maybe most of the cost is for the entire project, including streetscape, MG Trail, etc?

 

[nfitz]

Well, are they planning to use Transit City LRT or plain streetcars? Or is it only streetcars for Cherry, and LRT for QQ?

They are planning to use the new 30-metre long legacy LRV and not the 30-metre long Transit City LRV. The cost for each vehicle is similar.

Re: costs for streetcars. Couldn't we just use our current ones, or run some of the new fleet down there? That should be no added cost to the capital side of things.

They are all due to be retired by 2018. Which is why they are buying new ones. The size of the new fleet is for the current routes, plus enough spares for a few years of expected growth. The plan has always been to buy more cars if they run a new route.

 

[Rainforest]

My 2c :

1. When the original plan was for a QQ East LRT; was this for an actual LRT, or a plain streetcar line in an ROW?

Streetcar line in a ROW, similar to St Clair, Spadina, QQ West. Single-car trains and close stop spacing (200 - 300 m), versus 2-car trains and 400 - 700 m spacing on suburban LRT lines.

2. Or just have a loop near Bay, and have streetcars enter from King via Cherry?

Cherry line will operate as a branch of King. But for QQ East riders, traveling to CBD via Cherry and King is too much of a detour.

 

[Rainforest]

Do you have to convert Bay to a transit mall to put in 2 dedicated streetcar lanes?

Currently pedestrians on Bay in either direction use both the teamway, and the sidewalk next to relatively generous 2 road lanes. I'm not sure why pedestrians ever use the sidewalk compared to the much more pleasant teamway - perhaps they lock it at night?

Is there any reason that the pedestrians all use the teamway, and the sidewalk, and perhaps a bit of road, be used for a streetcar ROW on each side, still leaving 4 traffic lanes (perhaps slightly narrowed if necessary)?

That might be possible; I believe I've seen a 2 + 2 configuration in some European cities (streetcar ROW in the middle, and only one general traffic lane in each direction).

However, I'd be concerned about a broken car, or a delivery track, blocking the single lane and trapping the cars behind it.

Another problem with 2 + 2 configuration is that it is likely to make everyone unhappy. Motorists will complain about the streetcar ROW that takes away 2 lanes but serves only 30 vehicles per hour. Pedestrians will not feel welcome, due to the 2 packed car lanes. And streetcars will get delayed when some motorists end up on the ROW.

Entirely removing the cars from Bay might actually make everybody happier.

 

[allabootmatt]

That might be possible; I believe I've seen a 2 + 2 configuration in some European cities (streetcar ROW in the middle, and only one general traffic lane in each direction).

However, I'd be concerned about a broken car, or a delivery track, blocking the single lane and trapping the cars behind it.

Another problem with 2 + 2 configuration is that it is likely to make everyone unhappy. Motorists will complain about the streetcar ROW that takes away 2 lanes but serves only 30 vehicles per hour. Pedestrians will not feel welcome, due to the 2 packed car lanes. And streetcars will get delayed when some motorists end up on the ROW.

Entirely removing the cars from Bay might actually make everybody happier.

It's worth investigating. Even Calgary manages to have a downtown transit mall for its LRT, and no one seems to complain.

 

[dowlingm]

They are all due to be retired by 2018. Which is why they are buying new ones. The size of the new fleet is for the current routes, plus enough spares for a few years of expected growth. The plan has always been to buy more cars if they run a new route.

The current legacy fleet is due to hang around until 2024, at which point it loses exemption from Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act regulations and will likely be restricted to occasional activities similar to those carried out by the PCCs and the Peter Witt. The articulated cars will go first as TTC considers them harder to maintain, along with any CLRVs which are unserviceable without major expense. Steve Munro is pushing for the TTC to slow pace the departure of the current fleet so that increases in capacity can be obtained but then that means by 2024 the 4400 series deliveries will have to match that service level rather than the grudging amount TTC proposes now.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

It's worth investigating. Even Calgary manages to have a downtown transit mall for its LRT, and no one seems to complain.

No one complains NOW. It was a nightmare of wailing and teeth-gnashing at the time of construction.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Don't really know where to put this, but I'll put it here. Apparently the province will fund the LRT as part of their budget.

https://twitter.com/Glen4ONT/status/462021862034128897

@poissonish East Bay Front LRT was specifically committed to in today's budget!

 

[ehlow]

Don't really know where to put this, but I'll put it here. Apparently the province will fund the LRT as part of their budget.

https://twitter.com/Glen4ONT/status/462021862034128897

More transit announcements have come from that twitter account in the last few weeks than years before

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

that's nice!