nfitz
Superstar
And yet you need to come here and go on and on about it. Just put on earphones, and let it go, rather than bottling it up. Wish them a Merry Christmas.
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TTC: Other Items (catch all)
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Northern Light
Superstar
Ummm, when the bars empty out you want people driving home?
To be clear, I think being profoundly intoxicated is generally bad idea, even in private, never mind public. But back in the real world where drinking is legal, I think the options of booting the drunks off transit, writ large, for nothing other than being drunk is an odd idea and likely has consequences worse than where we started.
As it stands, there are criminal charges available for 'drunk and disorderly conduct' (now called 'causing a public disturbance')
S. 175 of the criminal code; but to apply that charge, you actually have to be doing something wrong while intoxicated, beyond merely being intoxicated.
There is also the more common legal remedy if you've gotten under the skin of a police officer, which is a the provincial charge under S.31 of the Liquor License and Control Act:
But again, if we started aggressively enforcing this we have a few problems, it applies in parks, on sidewalks, etc etc.; you have to be even-handed, not arbitrary.
We have no where near enough holding cells or detox space to 'drunk tank' everyone it might apply to......
We need to be more pragmatic in how we address things.
Northern Light
Superstar
I agree with this, but as noted above, I think your remedy is a bit problematic.
Pragmatic solutions are a challenge, that doesn't mean we should accept people disturbing others, threatening others or just setting up camp in the subway (or a local park); but neither can we regulate total sobriety, nor jail everyone who doesn't meet that standard in a public place.
We have to have a sense though of what requires rigorous enforcement action in real time, and what should simply be discouraged while we tackle underlying social ills.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I am just rather tired of transit users serving as those who had to the recipient of negative consequences from everyone who punted their responsibilities (personal and/or institutional). And yes, by the time you call in the police, you would have delayed and inconvenienced many others. No thanks. Someone else can deal with the consequences - start with those who got themselves drunk first.
No one is suggesting jailing drunks (though temporary incarceration until they sober up enough isn't a terrible idea).
AoD
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Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Some metro/subway stations around the world play classical music, at low volume, to divert the unhoused, youth, and undesirables. Youths hear lower volumes before adulthood.
81-717
Active Member
Kinda hard not to these days with everything going on in the world...
Ratazana
Active Member
Back in the early 2010s, if someone is spread out on a subway seat, people would check on that person to make sure they are ok.
People didn’t feel threatened.
Just in 2025 alone, I saw/experienced these. All on line 2:
- two teen girls screaming at the top of their lungs in a crowded subway in an obnoxious manner, When confronted and asked to not disturb others, they rained verbal assault on the person confronting them.
- 30 something woman came on to another busy car with her Bluetooth speaker blasting music, sat down and proceeded to vape. No one including myself wanted to get involved.
- a person possibly experiencing homelessness and who looked to be having liquid on his face. A good hearted passenger offered him a Kleenex and was unfortunately spat on and verbally assaulted.
- a stranger tried to follow me in through the fare gate at Sherbourne station, I stopped and didn’t let him, he verbally assaulted me. I waved at the fare collector and she said she couldn’t do anything about it.
Multiple examples where people choosing to ignore or engage. The end result: nothing.
So why engage? Why risk being physically attacked on top of the verbal assault?
People didn’t feel threatened.
Just in 2025 alone, I saw/experienced these. All on line 2:
- two teen girls screaming at the top of their lungs in a crowded subway in an obnoxious manner, When confronted and asked to not disturb others, they rained verbal assault on the person confronting them.
- 30 something woman came on to another busy car with her Bluetooth speaker blasting music, sat down and proceeded to vape. No one including myself wanted to get involved.
- a person possibly experiencing homelessness and who looked to be having liquid on his face. A good hearted passenger offered him a Kleenex and was unfortunately spat on and verbally assaulted.
- a stranger tried to follow me in through the fare gate at Sherbourne station, I stopped and didn’t let him, he verbally assaulted me. I waved at the fare collector and she said she couldn’t do anything about it.
Multiple examples where people choosing to ignore or engage. The end result: nothing.
So why engage? Why risk being physically attacked on top of the verbal assault?
nfitz
Superstar
It's so sad that so many have become so complacent and chicken that they won't say something to someone vaping on the subway. And even more annoying that they have the temerity to talk behind the person's back!
The way to fix the problem is to take back the streets. Not cower.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
That maybe, but it is the job of the transit agency to enforce their rules, not that of the riders. The latter aren't paid to do their job.
AoD
APTA-2048
Senior Member
I notice the goal posts keep shifting in this thread. But still, someone sleeping, even if they smell, is not a threat to you. Someone simply drinking a beer is not a threat to you. Oh my god, kids saw someone drinking a beer. I really don’t think they care. When I was a kid I saw people drink and smoke on the TTC. I don’t smoke. I don’t even drink alcohol.
gabe
Senior Member
It’s really getting to a point where women especially young women cannot travel safely on public transport without harassment or worse. I know as a man i feel safe, but i personally have wittiness sexual harassment on the TTC towards females.
Very few of my female friends take the TTC these days, they use it a short distance if they have to and never take it during darkness.
T3G
Senior Member
As @Northern Light noted, all this would achieve is screwing over those who have had a night out. For better or worse (and it is not something the TTC has the power change, and should not try), drinking is a big part of the fabric of socializing in western society. Banning those who have been doing that from the transit system would only push more people to drink and drive... hardly a result we should desire. To say nothing of inadvertently screwing those who are sober on transit, since all these would-be drunk drivers will now be clogging up the roads and putting transit vehicles in danger as well.
Plus, you know, living in a diverse, pluralistic society, and all that. Sometimes you're going to run into behaviours you don't personally approve of. Anyone seeking to avoid drunks might find a God-fearing village in the Bible belt to be more their speed.
N. B. I say this as someone who doesn't drink.
With respect, I don't think this is a good idea at all. The guy who got stabbed after an altercation about music back in July 2023 did exactly this, and see where it got him. The person playing the music ignored his request, so the victim started punching him and was met with a stabbing in response.
People need to get better at minding their own business. Tolerating an inconvenience is a far better outcome than risking being shot or stabbed because you call out the wrong person.
Northern Light
Superstar
I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting you are embellishing any of the above; but I do have to say, as a frequent rider, one who is observant and doesn't wear head phones or tune out the world, I find the frequency of incidents you say you've encountered .....difficult to comprehend. I've had one similar level incident in 2025; maybe 3 over the last 5-6 years. Which, by the way, is still too many; but I just don't find the system to be as dangerous or anti-social as your experience seems to suggest. Again, I'm not saying your experiences aren't real, but I am saying they seem anomalous to me.
As to the one incident on a subway, it involved someone ranting in a rather profane way and intimidating some other passengers. I did intervene; there was some risk, it didn't get violent, but it might have........glad it didn't, but there are certain things I won't abide.
Nonetheless, I still consider the system safe and mostly hospitable, most days.
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turbanplanner
Senior Member
I 100% understand your complaint! Like I think the bus drivers not enforcing fares is part of why there are so many characters riding now. On the flip side I also 100% understand why the TTC told them they're not supposed to act like fare inspectors since the number of violent incidents has gone up.
Personally I hope the newly instated police patrols will reduce 90% of these sort
I personally find the system safe enough it doesn't affect if/when I use it. On the flip side check the number of assault related transit delays on the open data. I know I can't actually give exact numbers for this but think how many un-reported incidents there are? I had a crazy man on a bus yell about shooting people, this was the 900 from the airport so I knew there is a chance if I texted transit control there would be someone waiting.
The bus actually stopped since they called the driver, he said he didn't see a gun so they decided to go and not call anyone (Ironically the wacko heard this)
I'll probably never message them again for a similar situation as I know there is a low chance something will happen, so a lot of things go unreported!
Ratazana
Active Member
I guess I have been quite unlucky this year, and I even tried to tune out the world by wearing noise canceling headphones during the winter months (also as an earmuffs).
I can promise you all have been real incidents. First two happened during the summer (vaping lady sat right next to me, but strangely dressed like she just came from a soccer practice). The last two happened during Nov/Dec.
The fare gate situation happened I think within a week of the Dundas/TMU station stabbing between a ttc staff and a man. After I walked away from the altercation, I suddenly remembered the stabbing and I literally started looking around to make sure I am nowhere near the person I blocked at the fare gate.
The system is not so dangerous that people should avoid it (Toronto is no Robocop Detroit, yet). But what we are experiencing is akin to the boiling frog metaphor. Everyday experience on the ttc deteriorates just a little bit more and eventually the system should be avoided (Canadians are so nice and forgiving and tend not to complain). I can tell the water is getting uncomfortably warm already, especially after visiting other systems in the world this year, the two extremes: NYC MTA and Hong Kong MTR.
We aren’t that far off from the MTA. Just fewer guns.