TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[CDL.TO]

Or Moscow, or Helsinki, or Stockholm...

(Funny thing is I think there was a discussion last year where some forumer(s) were asserting that catenary wouldn't work in Toronto due to potential ice buildup.)

 

[Wrenkin]

I think one thing we have over England is that our third rails are sheltered by wooden boards whereas I don't know that they are over there. But you may still have problems here with particularly deep snow. IIRC during the 1999 blizzard there was a disruption at Davisville, although that might have been frozen switches.

 

[Tuscani01]

The TTC also runs trains all night in advance of a large snowfall, to prevent snow from accumulating and ice buildup. They have also stored trains within the tunnels overnight to ensure that nothing prevents them from making it out for service the following AM.

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

I think one thing we have over England is that our third rails are sheltered by wooden boards whereas I don't know that they are over there. But you may still have problems here with particularly deep snow. IIRC during the 1999 blizzard there was a disruption at Davisville, although that might have been frozen switches.

The third rail was pretty convincingly buried in snow during the Storm of '99. The subway only ran between Bloor and St. Clair West and Lawrence-Finch on the YUS and between Keele and Woodbine on the BD. All trains were stored on the line for about three-four days as nothing could get in or out of the yards. Some crews worked two-three straight days and slept in the parked trains for a few hours since it was nearly impossible for some operators to even get to work. I think they got caught not running snow trains and the snow piled up very quickly (as it did on the streets that barely got plowed before the next storm). The heavy snow also caused problems with the trains keeping a connection to the third rail so that trains got stranded in the open cuts.

 

[wopchop]

Anecdotally, I think the aboveground segments may have lower level of reliability in winter (just thinking the Islington-Kipling section), though the difference could be due to section specific issues (e.g. switches, signals) than the third rail itself. it would be interesting to see how it compares to a system using pantographs in an apples-to-apples setting.

AoD

Yeah, fair enough. But that's lot different than saying "third rail does not work in winter climates", which is clearly false.

 

[the lemur]

If Bombardier were delivering the streetcars at the contractually agreed rate, how frequently would they be taken into service at this point? How many deliveries could the TTC handle?

 

[dowlingm]

Don't suppose it's too late to just tell Bombardier "call off the uptown/Waterloo cars, you've got enough to worry about downtown" and engage with Alstom about getting Citadis Spirit for Crosstown and ION?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Ohhh... It's so shiny. And I'm sure the red makes it go faster. Sign us up!

 

[ehlow]

I would expect there would be some benefits to having the new streetcars similar or almost the same as the vehicles running on Eglinton. Like maybe it would be easier to share components & repair/maintain.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

I fully support Alstom Citadis for ION and Crosstown!

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Seriously though, what benefits does Alstom carry over Bombardier (other than being shiny and red, of course)?

 

[nfitz]

Seriously though, what benefits does Alstom carry over Bombardier (other than being shiny and red, of course)?

Well, it would increase the cost, and probably delay delivery. So if one is anti-streetcar, there's a lot more to complain about.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Well, it would increase the cost, and probably delay delivery. So if one is anti-streetcar, there's a lot more to complain about.

Well that's not a benefit, nfitz, unless you're Rob Ford. Are you Rob Ford? hmmmm....

 

[nfitz]

Well that's not a benefit, nfitz, unless you're Rob Ford. Are you Rob Ford? hmmmm....

I'm afraid the only thing I beat is dead horses!

 

[dowlingm]

I never bought the economy of scale argument back when Miller made it, ehlow. It meant the uptown dog was wagged by the downtown tail, which was an RFP so restrictive that virtually every other tram maker in the world (apart from Trampower, haha) said "no thanks". If the downtown RFP had been for a 70% low floor car we could be a lot further along than we are given the delay the first time round with the derailment simulation failure.

Compared to even European light rail systems, 204 cars is a huge order, and that could be 264 if Byford gets his way. Even then, some aspects of the cars are not interchangeable. Finally, as Metrolinx will own the uptown cars there will be limits to how much parts pooling could and would happen.

The upside to Alstom would be a mature platform - more than 1500 delivered - which is already being Canadianised for Ottawa who gets worse weather than we do. There would likely be a lower CanContent because that wasn't insisted on to the same extent in Ottawa's RFP which was for a complete build rather than separating out vehicles, but 100+ cars would be a good incentive to improve on what is being done for the 34 Ottawa cars. But politically I can't see it happening. Bombardier's federal and provincial bodyguards would freak out since the company is already bleeding profusely due to C Series.