D
drum118
Guest
After reading the Star article on Toronto shops for Streetcars, a whole bunch of red herring and miss information jumped out at me.
It also goes along with the rumors that a prototype is to show up in 2008 now. One being that one of Ottawa’s new LRT will be delivery to TTC with TTC gauge bogies either before the CNE for testing or after it and it will be on display during the CNE.
I do know that the first prototype rebuilt CLRV was supposedly to appear in 2007, but due to no funding for it in the Toronto 2006 budget, it may get delayed until 2008.
Then putting $1-$1.25 millions into each of the current fleet CLRV’s cars to get another 12 years out of them; facing a law suit because they will not meet the ODA standards as well MTO 2012 year end guideline that requires all transit vehicles to be 100% accessible; along with section 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom Act, it is not worth it. Also, it is to take 4 years to get all 102 rebuilt CLRV’s once the first one is finished its testing. This means that one CLRV will see 10-11 years of service while the rest will see 6-9 years of service and that is not a good return on the investment.
All you got to do is look at the delivery date of the existing CLRV’s to see when they are to reach their 30th birthday. Then look at TTC timeline that was presented at June 22nd 2005 meeting and you will see when and how many of the current CLRV’s will be rebuilt and you will see which ones will get rebuilt. Timeline to retire all of the existing fleet is 2018.
What TTC will see is an empty Hillcrest facility for the next 10 years once the new 248 LRT’s are in the system and the removal of the existing fleet. Also, TTC well have fewer employees on the payroll as they will not be required until the new fleet pass their 10 years of service and approach midlife rebuilt time.
I see a fleet of 500 LRT’s within 20 years once the new LRT lines are started to be built.
Seeing the new subway train surface after TTC June 22nd 2005 meeting where it was decided to rebuild 102 of the current CLRV’s and purchase 100 LRT’s, I understand why the first prototype LRT would not show up until 2010-12 now because Bombardier Thunder Bay plant could not deal with both orders at the same time. Again, putting all your eggs in one basket has it downside and this is one good example of it.
It does not take 5-7 years to design a LRT for TTC today considering what is on the market today. If it is being done in-house, then it being done as a make work program and keeping people on the payroll who should not be there in the first place. Based on my background it should take no more than 2 years doing it from scratch using pen and paper and no use of AutoCAD.
Both I and Vice Chair Joe Mihevc stated at that meeting that there are no reasons why an RFP could not be issued either by year end or by March 2006 to obtain not one, but 3 prototype LRT’s for testing starting in 2007.
There are at least 5 manufactures world wide who could meet TTC special needs for an off the shelf model with very little modification. Since TTC is going to purchase over 248 LRT’s not only to replace the existing fleet as well expand it to meet the needs for the Waterfront, Kingston Rd, Eglinton Ave and Don Mills LRT lines over the next 10 years, the cost to purchase non standard bogies over standard bogies is only going to cost next to nothing.
All you are going to do is add 70 mm more of shaft material to meet TTC track gauge and that should run around $100 per shaft at the outside or $600 per car or $148,000 for 248 cars. This is based on 3 sets of bogies per car. If a 4th bogie is required, than it will cost $800 a car.
Then there is the costs of building a new casting die for the bogie itself and the extra material for the casting. You would be looking at about $2,000 per bogie more than a standard one based on the size of the order.
If TTC bought steerable wheels to cut down on the squealing of wheels as the cars take the sharp turns as well the wear and tear on the rail and the wheels themselves, you might be looking at about $50,000 per car. I am not up to date on current cost at this time.
Upgrading the propulsion system along with a number of things including the bogies, it should not cost more than $150,000 for a non standard car over a standard gauge car and I am pushing it. That does not workout to be the $1 million dollars modification per car as stated.
Using Bathurst St 8% grade as the benchmark for the propulsion system for all LRT’s is a waste of money considering you only need 30 cars to handle Bathurst St in the first place. Once you get Dundas rebuilt for LRT’s or having a line on Jane St, you will not have any grades over 5% and there would be no need to use Bathurst St anymore to service St Clair.
What is not stated is the $60 million for a new carhouse as Roncesvalles would be lucky to see 60 LRT’s stored there while Russell would see close to 80 due to the new length of the LRT’s. This means that both current carhouses can only hold 140 cars, meaning that there has to be 108 on the road at all times. There are two ideas floating around to deal with the storage issues and one would see the Commissioners St garage converted to handle the new LRT’s and converting Russell to buses or building a new LRT garage in Scarborough.
If you factor in this $60 million for the new LRT’s carhouse, this would work out to be $241,935.48 per car. By rights, TTC will need 2 new carhouses to serve the north east-west end of the city as new LRT lines are built up there in the coming years.
Then there is the cost of rebuilding all loops and curves that are under 40 foot radius to 40 foot plus radius and there are not that many of them that should be in the neighborhood of $20 million except for Union Station. I am surprised TTC has not enlarged the radius when the track work was rebuilt.
Union Station will have to be totally rebuilt not only for the new LRT’s, but for the subway platform expansion along with the Waterfront expansion that will see 5,000 plus riders per hour at peak time. It will cost close to $500 million to build the new loop to handle 8 LRT’s at the same time using a centre platform.
What every way I look at this $1 million extra for modification as stated, the best I could come up that comes close to this figure, is $400,000 per car that includes a few bells and whisles and that pushing it.
As to the cost of the LRT pegged at $3 million per car, this comes close to the figure that I have used from day one as well MTO, Vice Chair Joe Mihevc and it was used at June 22nd meeting.
Now if you start to throw in the cost of the new smart card, readers, counter and farebox along with various vending machines, then you are going to be close to the $1 million extra per car for modifications.
Once these new LRT’s show up, the lack of accessibility will be finally be addressed for the city core.
I have recommended that double end cars be purchased as they will require half the amount of land that is required for today’s loops, let alone the extra land it is really needed to provide a larger loop. This will help to eliminate the squealing of the wheels are they turn that all the local residents complaint about who live next or near a loop in the first place. Also to allow a driver to go the opposite way on the opposite direction track if a line gets shut down without having someone at the other end telling them what to do about backing up. It would require some crossovers along the routes at various sections. There are pros and cons for going single ends as it would cut down on the cost of the units in the first place and hold a few more riders.
They will come with pantograph for a number of reasons. Drivers do not have to worry about the pantograph coming off the wire as they cross another route or switching like they do today for the poles. Then they don’t have to get off the car into traffic without fear for their lives as well dealing with the weather to put the pole back on the wire.
The first 4 CLRV's came with pantograph, but were removed as it was unknown at the time if the existing overhead could support them in the first place with out testing them on the system in the first place.
Then management does not have to worry about when to put ice cutters on the poles like they do today as the pantograph have a wider contact area and this allows better contact and more area to cut the ice.
Since TTC has being replacing the existing wires these past few years, the wires will support the pantograph.
The LRT’s will come with 2 accessibly spaces as well storage for 4 bikes.
All new LRT’s will come with couplers to allow them to operate in pair that will be operated by one driver only.
This is where the real cost saving starts to come in to play. Having only one driver in place of 2 has its plus’s and minus, but saving $60/hr for 10 hours a day is $600 a day times the number of pairs and that starts to add up. Labour cost represents close to 70%-75% of transit operation costs today and is only going to get higher in time.
They will come with doors on both sides of the unit and will reduce the seating by 8.
Moving to a vehicle that cannot only carry the same ridership of two buses or 4 buses using pairs, this will mean there will be 2-3 less drivers on the road or are available for more service. This is not what the union likes to hear about cutting drivers or having less drivers with more service, but transit systems have to come up with ways to help to keep operation costs down as riders will walk away if the fare keeps on going up and up regardless what gas costs, as well the continuations of sardine loads on the current system.
At the end of the day, TTC is better off buying all 248 LRT’s in one order to replace the current fleet on a one to one basis regardless of increased of ridership capacity, as it will be needed to help the city grow and maintaining the current service. Cutting service because of the increase carrying capacity will chase riders away.
If you saw the Olympic commercials for Bombardier, you will notice that the LRT in the commercial that it had 5 sections to it and did a sharp 90 degree turn similar to TTC turns. It was shot in Strausberg Germany. When I first saw it I said there is TTC’s new LRT’s and Bombardier was saying to TTC “we have your new LRT already and it is an off the shelf model that will meet your current needsâ€.
Let’s get the RFP rolling this year and get these new LRT’s on the road by 2009. Let it be a true RFP and TTC will get not only a better price, but delivery date. There needs to be some options for more cars to be ordered on top of the 248 as they are going to be needed as the system expands over the next 10 years.
With the current EA in process for the Waterfront, it should be approved by 2008 with construction completed by 2010-11. The only thing the Waterfront Developers want to see on these new tracks is the new LRT’s as it will help showcase the Waterfront. I agree that the New LRT’s should be assigned there 100%, just like St Clair should be, as these are the 2 main showcases for what the rest of the city is going to get and it will be an easier fight to get them into areas that don’t see streetcars now.
One thing to keep in mind, a 40 foot bus can only carry 3,300 at peak time as per Ridership Growth Plan or 4,500 at crush load with a bus operating every one minute. A 60 foot bus can carry 4,500-6,000 per one minute of service. An LRT can carry 4,500-6,700 every 2 minutes or a two pair every 4 minute.
Dave After reading the Star article on Toronto shops for Streetcars, a whole bunch of red herring and miss information jumped out at me.
It also goes along with the rumors that a prototype is to show up in 2008 now. One being that one of Ottawa’s new LRT will be delivery to TTC with TTC gauge bogies either before the CNE for testing or after it and it will be on display during the CNE.
I do know that the first prototype rebuilt CLRV was supposedly to appear in 2007, but due to no funding for it in the Toronto 2006 budget, it may get delayed until 2008.
Then putting $1-$1.25 millions into each of the current fleet CLRV’s cars to get another 12 years out of them; facing a law suit because they will not meet the ODA standards as well MTO 2012 year end guideline that requires all transit vehicles to be 100% accessible; along with section 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom Act, it is not worth it. Also, it is to take 4 years to get all 102 rebuilt CLRV’s once the first one is finished its testing. This means that one CLRV will see 10-11 years of service while the rest will see 6-9 years of service and that is not a good return on the investment.
All you got to do is look at the delivery date of the existing CLRV’s to see when they are to reach their 30th birthday. Then look at TTC timeline that was presented at June 22nd 2005 meeting and you will see when and how many of the current CLRV’s will be rebuilt and you will see which ones will get rebuilt. Timeline to retire all of the existing fleet is 2018.
What TTC will see is an empty Hillcrest facility for the next 10 years once the new 248 LRT’s are in the system and the removal of the existing fleet. Also, TTC well have fewer employees on the payroll as they will not be required until the new fleet pass their 10 years of service and approach midlife rebuilt time.
I see a fleet of 500 LRT’s within 20 years once the new LRT lines are started to be built.
Seeing the new subway train surface after TTC June 22nd 2005 meeting where it was decided to rebuild 102 of the current CLRV’s and purchase 100 LRT’s, I understand why the first prototype LRT would not show up until 2010-12 now because Bombardier Thunder Bay plant could not deal with both orders at the same time. Again, putting all your eggs in one basket has it downside and this is one good example of it.
It does not take 5-7 years to design a LRT for TTC today considering what is on the market today. If it is being done in-house, then it being done as a make work program and keeping people on the payroll who should not be there in the first place. Based on my background it should take no more than 2 years doing it from scratch using pen and paper and no use of AutoCAD.
Both I and Vice Chair Joe Mihevc stated at that meeting that there are no reasons why an RFP could not be issued either by year end or by March 2006 to obtain not one, but 3 prototype LRT’s for testing starting in 2007.
There are at least 5 manufactures world wide who could meet TTC special needs for an off the shelf model with very little modification. Since TTC is going to purchase over 248 LRT’s not only to replace the existing fleet as well expand it to meet the needs for the Waterfront, Kingston Rd, Eglinton Ave and Don Mills LRT lines over the next 10 years, the cost to purchase non standard bogies over standard bogies is only going to cost next to nothing.
All you are going to do is add 70 mm more of shaft material to meet TTC track gauge and that should run around $100 per shaft at the outside or $600 per car or $148,000 for 248 cars. This is based on 3 sets of bogies per car. If a 4th bogie is required, than it will cost $800 a car.
Then there is the costs of building a new casting die for the bogie itself and the extra material for the casting. You would be looking at about $2,000 per bogie more than a standard one based on the size of the order.
If TTC bought steerable wheels to cut down on the squealing of wheels as the cars take the sharp turns as well the wear and tear on the rail and the wheels themselves, you might be looking at about $50,000 per car. I am not up to date on current cost at this time.
Upgrading the propulsion system along with a number of things including the bogies, it should not cost more than $150,000 for a non standard car over a standard gauge car and I am pushing it. That does not workout to be the $1 million dollars modification per car as stated.
Using Bathurst St 8% grade as the benchmark for the propulsion system for all LRT’s is a waste of money considering you only need 30 cars to handle Bathurst St in the first place. Once you get Dundas rebuilt for LRT’s or having a line on Jane St, you will not have any grades over 5% and there would be no need to use Bathurst St anymore to service St Clair.
What is not stated is the $60 million for a new carhouse as Roncesvalles would be lucky to see 60 LRT’s stored there while Russell would see close to 80 due to the new length of the LRT’s. This means that both current carhouses can only hold 140 cars, meaning that there has to be 108 on the road at all times. There are two ideas floating around to deal with the storage issues and one would see the Commissioners St garage converted to handle the new LRT’s and converting Russell to buses or building a new LRT garage in Scarborough.
If you factor in this $60 million for the new LRT’s carhouse, this would work out to be $241,935.48 per car. By rights, TTC will need 2 new carhouses to serve the north east-west end of the city as new LRT lines are built up there in the coming years.
Then there is the cost of rebuilding all loops and curves that are under 40 foot radius to 40 foot plus radius and there are not that many of them that should be in the neighborhood of $20 million except for Union Station. I am surprised TTC has not enlarged the radius when the track work was rebuilt.
Union Station will have to be totally rebuilt not only for the new LRT’s, but for the subway platform expansion along with the Waterfront expansion that will see 5,000 plus riders per hour at peak time. It will cost close to $500 million to build the new loop to handle 8 LRT’s at the same time using a centre platform.
What every way I look at this $1 million extra for modification as stated, the best I could come up that comes close to this figure, is $400,000 per car that includes a few bells and whisles and that pushing it.
As to the cost of the LRT pegged at $3 million per car, this comes close to the figure that I have used from day one as well MTO, Vice Chair Joe Mihevc and it was used at June 22nd meeting.
Now if you start to throw in the cost of the new smart card, readers, counter and farebox along with various vending machines, then you are going to be close to the $1 million extra per car for modifications.
Once these new LRT’s show up, the lack of accessibility will be finally be addressed for the city core.
I have recommended that double end cars be purchased as they will require half the amount of land that is required for today’s loops, let alone the extra land it is really needed to provide a larger loop. This will help to eliminate the squealing of the wheels are they turn that all the local residents complaint about who live next or near a loop in the first place. Also to allow a driver to go the opposite way on the opposite direction track if a line gets shut down without having someone at the other end telling them what to do about backing up. It would require some crossovers along the routes at various sections. There are pros and cons for going single ends as it would cut down on the cost of the units in the first place and hold a few more riders.
They will come with pantograph for a number of reasons. Drivers do not have to worry about the pantograph coming off the wire as they cross another route or switching like they do today for the poles. Then they don’t have to get off the car into traffic without fear for their lives as well dealing with the weather to put the pole back on the wire.
The first 4 CLRV's came with pantograph, but were removed as it was unknown at the time if the existing overhead could support them in the first place with out testing them on the system in the first place.
Then management does not have to worry about when to put ice cutters on the poles like they do today as the pantograph have a wider contact area and this allows better contact and more area to cut the ice.
Since TTC has being replacing the existing wires these past few years, the wires will support the pantograph.
The LRT’s will come with 2 accessibly spaces as well storage for 4 bikes.
All new LRT’s will come with couplers to allow them to operate in pair that will be operated by one driver only.
This is where the real cost saving starts to come in to play. Having only one driver in place of 2 has its plus’s and minus, but saving $60/hr for 10 hours a day is $600 a day times the number of pairs and that starts to add up. Labour cost represents close to 70%-75% of transit operation costs today and is only going to get higher in time.
They will come with doors on both sides of the unit and will reduce the seating by 8.
Moving to a vehicle that cannot only carry the same ridership of two buses or 4 buses using pairs, this will mean there will be 2-3 less drivers on the road or are available for more service. This is not what the union likes to hear about cutting drivers or having less drivers with more service, but transit systems have to come up with ways to help to keep operation costs down as riders will walk away if the fare keeps on going up and up regardless what gas costs, as well the continuations of sardine loads on the current system.
At the end of the day, TTC is better off buying all 248 LRT’s in one order to replace the current fleet on a one to one basis regardless of increased of ridership capacity, as it will be needed to help the city grow and maintaining the current service. Cutting service because of the increase carrying capacity will chase riders away.
If you saw the Olympic commercials for Bombardier, you will notice that the LRT in the commercial had 5 sections and it did a sharp 90 degree turn similar to TTC turns. It was shot in Strausberg Germany. When I first saw it I said there is TTC’s new LRT’s and Bombardier was saying to TTC “we have your new LRT already and it is an off the shelf model that will meet your current needsâ€.
Let’s get the RFP rolling this year and get these new LRT’s on the road by 2009. Let it be a true RFP and TTC will get not only a better price, but delivery date. There needs to be some options for more cars to be ordered on top of the 248 as they are going to be needed as the system expands over the next 10 years.
With the current EA in process for the Waterfront, it should be approved by 2008 with construction completed by 2010-11. The only thing the Waterfront Developers want to see on these new tracks is the new LRT’s as it will help showcase the Waterfront. I agree that the New LRT’s should be assigned there 100%, just like St Clair should be, as these are the 2 main showcases for what the rest of the city is going to get and it will be an easier fight to get them into areas that don’t see streetcars now.
One thing to keep in mind, a 40 foot bus can only carry 3,300 at peak time as per Ridership Growth Plan or 4,500 at crush load with a bus operating every one minute. A 60 foot bus can carry 4,500-6,000 per one minute of service. An LRT can carry 4,500-6,700 every 2 minutes or a two pair every 4 minute with the same load.
Dave
It also goes along with the rumors that a prototype is to show up in 2008 now. One being that one of Ottawa’s new LRT will be delivery to TTC with TTC gauge bogies either before the CNE for testing or after it and it will be on display during the CNE.
I do know that the first prototype rebuilt CLRV was supposedly to appear in 2007, but due to no funding for it in the Toronto 2006 budget, it may get delayed until 2008.
Then putting $1-$1.25 millions into each of the current fleet CLRV’s cars to get another 12 years out of them; facing a law suit because they will not meet the ODA standards as well MTO 2012 year end guideline that requires all transit vehicles to be 100% accessible; along with section 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom Act, it is not worth it. Also, it is to take 4 years to get all 102 rebuilt CLRV’s once the first one is finished its testing. This means that one CLRV will see 10-11 years of service while the rest will see 6-9 years of service and that is not a good return on the investment.
All you got to do is look at the delivery date of the existing CLRV’s to see when they are to reach their 30th birthday. Then look at TTC timeline that was presented at June 22nd 2005 meeting and you will see when and how many of the current CLRV’s will be rebuilt and you will see which ones will get rebuilt. Timeline to retire all of the existing fleet is 2018.
What TTC will see is an empty Hillcrest facility for the next 10 years once the new 248 LRT’s are in the system and the removal of the existing fleet. Also, TTC well have fewer employees on the payroll as they will not be required until the new fleet pass their 10 years of service and approach midlife rebuilt time.
I see a fleet of 500 LRT’s within 20 years once the new LRT lines are started to be built.
Seeing the new subway train surface after TTC June 22nd 2005 meeting where it was decided to rebuild 102 of the current CLRV’s and purchase 100 LRT’s, I understand why the first prototype LRT would not show up until 2010-12 now because Bombardier Thunder Bay plant could not deal with both orders at the same time. Again, putting all your eggs in one basket has it downside and this is one good example of it.
It does not take 5-7 years to design a LRT for TTC today considering what is on the market today. If it is being done in-house, then it being done as a make work program and keeping people on the payroll who should not be there in the first place. Based on my background it should take no more than 2 years doing it from scratch using pen and paper and no use of AutoCAD.
Both I and Vice Chair Joe Mihevc stated at that meeting that there are no reasons why an RFP could not be issued either by year end or by March 2006 to obtain not one, but 3 prototype LRT’s for testing starting in 2007.
There are at least 5 manufactures world wide who could meet TTC special needs for an off the shelf model with very little modification. Since TTC is going to purchase over 248 LRT’s not only to replace the existing fleet as well expand it to meet the needs for the Waterfront, Kingston Rd, Eglinton Ave and Don Mills LRT lines over the next 10 years, the cost to purchase non standard bogies over standard bogies is only going to cost next to nothing.
All you are going to do is add 70 mm more of shaft material to meet TTC track gauge and that should run around $100 per shaft at the outside or $600 per car or $148,000 for 248 cars. This is based on 3 sets of bogies per car. If a 4th bogie is required, than it will cost $800 a car.
Then there is the costs of building a new casting die for the bogie itself and the extra material for the casting. You would be looking at about $2,000 per bogie more than a standard one based on the size of the order.
If TTC bought steerable wheels to cut down on the squealing of wheels as the cars take the sharp turns as well the wear and tear on the rail and the wheels themselves, you might be looking at about $50,000 per car. I am not up to date on current cost at this time.
Upgrading the propulsion system along with a number of things including the bogies, it should not cost more than $150,000 for a non standard car over a standard gauge car and I am pushing it. That does not workout to be the $1 million dollars modification per car as stated.
Using Bathurst St 8% grade as the benchmark for the propulsion system for all LRT’s is a waste of money considering you only need 30 cars to handle Bathurst St in the first place. Once you get Dundas rebuilt for LRT’s or having a line on Jane St, you will not have any grades over 5% and there would be no need to use Bathurst St anymore to service St Clair.
What is not stated is the $60 million for a new carhouse as Roncesvalles would be lucky to see 60 LRT’s stored there while Russell would see close to 80 due to the new length of the LRT’s. This means that both current carhouses can only hold 140 cars, meaning that there has to be 108 on the road at all times. There are two ideas floating around to deal with the storage issues and one would see the Commissioners St garage converted to handle the new LRT’s and converting Russell to buses or building a new LRT garage in Scarborough.
If you factor in this $60 million for the new LRT’s carhouse, this would work out to be $241,935.48 per car. By rights, TTC will need 2 new carhouses to serve the north east-west end of the city as new LRT lines are built up there in the coming years.
Then there is the cost of rebuilding all loops and curves that are under 40 foot radius to 40 foot plus radius and there are not that many of them that should be in the neighborhood of $20 million except for Union Station. I am surprised TTC has not enlarged the radius when the track work was rebuilt.
Union Station will have to be totally rebuilt not only for the new LRT’s, but for the subway platform expansion along with the Waterfront expansion that will see 5,000 plus riders per hour at peak time. It will cost close to $500 million to build the new loop to handle 8 LRT’s at the same time using a centre platform.
What every way I look at this $1 million extra for modification as stated, the best I could come up that comes close to this figure, is $400,000 per car that includes a few bells and whisles and that pushing it.
As to the cost of the LRT pegged at $3 million per car, this comes close to the figure that I have used from day one as well MTO, Vice Chair Joe Mihevc and it was used at June 22nd meeting.
Now if you start to throw in the cost of the new smart card, readers, counter and farebox along with various vending machines, then you are going to be close to the $1 million extra per car for modifications.
Once these new LRT’s show up, the lack of accessibility will be finally be addressed for the city core.
I have recommended that double end cars be purchased as they will require half the amount of land that is required for today’s loops, let alone the extra land it is really needed to provide a larger loop. This will help to eliminate the squealing of the wheels are they turn that all the local residents complaint about who live next or near a loop in the first place. Also to allow a driver to go the opposite way on the opposite direction track if a line gets shut down without having someone at the other end telling them what to do about backing up. It would require some crossovers along the routes at various sections. There are pros and cons for going single ends as it would cut down on the cost of the units in the first place and hold a few more riders.
They will come with pantograph for a number of reasons. Drivers do not have to worry about the pantograph coming off the wire as they cross another route or switching like they do today for the poles. Then they don’t have to get off the car into traffic without fear for their lives as well dealing with the weather to put the pole back on the wire.
The first 4 CLRV's came with pantograph, but were removed as it was unknown at the time if the existing overhead could support them in the first place with out testing them on the system in the first place.
Then management does not have to worry about when to put ice cutters on the poles like they do today as the pantograph have a wider contact area and this allows better contact and more area to cut the ice.
Since TTC has being replacing the existing wires these past few years, the wires will support the pantograph.
The LRT’s will come with 2 accessibly spaces as well storage for 4 bikes.
All new LRT’s will come with couplers to allow them to operate in pair that will be operated by one driver only.
This is where the real cost saving starts to come in to play. Having only one driver in place of 2 has its plus’s and minus, but saving $60/hr for 10 hours a day is $600 a day times the number of pairs and that starts to add up. Labour cost represents close to 70%-75% of transit operation costs today and is only going to get higher in time.
They will come with doors on both sides of the unit and will reduce the seating by 8.
Moving to a vehicle that cannot only carry the same ridership of two buses or 4 buses using pairs, this will mean there will be 2-3 less drivers on the road or are available for more service. This is not what the union likes to hear about cutting drivers or having less drivers with more service, but transit systems have to come up with ways to help to keep operation costs down as riders will walk away if the fare keeps on going up and up regardless what gas costs, as well the continuations of sardine loads on the current system.
At the end of the day, TTC is better off buying all 248 LRT’s in one order to replace the current fleet on a one to one basis regardless of increased of ridership capacity, as it will be needed to help the city grow and maintaining the current service. Cutting service because of the increase carrying capacity will chase riders away.
If you saw the Olympic commercials for Bombardier, you will notice that the LRT in the commercial that it had 5 sections to it and did a sharp 90 degree turn similar to TTC turns. It was shot in Strausberg Germany. When I first saw it I said there is TTC’s new LRT’s and Bombardier was saying to TTC “we have your new LRT already and it is an off the shelf model that will meet your current needsâ€.
Let’s get the RFP rolling this year and get these new LRT’s on the road by 2009. Let it be a true RFP and TTC will get not only a better price, but delivery date. There needs to be some options for more cars to be ordered on top of the 248 as they are going to be needed as the system expands over the next 10 years.
With the current EA in process for the Waterfront, it should be approved by 2008 with construction completed by 2010-11. The only thing the Waterfront Developers want to see on these new tracks is the new LRT’s as it will help showcase the Waterfront. I agree that the New LRT’s should be assigned there 100%, just like St Clair should be, as these are the 2 main showcases for what the rest of the city is going to get and it will be an easier fight to get them into areas that don’t see streetcars now.
One thing to keep in mind, a 40 foot bus can only carry 3,300 at peak time as per Ridership Growth Plan or 4,500 at crush load with a bus operating every one minute. A 60 foot bus can carry 4,500-6,000 per one minute of service. An LRT can carry 4,500-6,700 every 2 minutes or a two pair every 4 minute.
Dave After reading the Star article on Toronto shops for Streetcars, a whole bunch of red herring and miss information jumped out at me.
It also goes along with the rumors that a prototype is to show up in 2008 now. One being that one of Ottawa’s new LRT will be delivery to TTC with TTC gauge bogies either before the CNE for testing or after it and it will be on display during the CNE.
I do know that the first prototype rebuilt CLRV was supposedly to appear in 2007, but due to no funding for it in the Toronto 2006 budget, it may get delayed until 2008.
Then putting $1-$1.25 millions into each of the current fleet CLRV’s cars to get another 12 years out of them; facing a law suit because they will not meet the ODA standards as well MTO 2012 year end guideline that requires all transit vehicles to be 100% accessible; along with section 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom Act, it is not worth it. Also, it is to take 4 years to get all 102 rebuilt CLRV’s once the first one is finished its testing. This means that one CLRV will see 10-11 years of service while the rest will see 6-9 years of service and that is not a good return on the investment.
All you got to do is look at the delivery date of the existing CLRV’s to see when they are to reach their 30th birthday. Then look at TTC timeline that was presented at June 22nd 2005 meeting and you will see when and how many of the current CLRV’s will be rebuilt and you will see which ones will get rebuilt. Timeline to retire all of the existing fleet is 2018.
What TTC will see is an empty Hillcrest facility for the next 10 years once the new 248 LRT’s are in the system and the removal of the existing fleet. Also, TTC well have fewer employees on the payroll as they will not be required until the new fleet pass their 10 years of service and approach midlife rebuilt time.
I see a fleet of 500 LRT’s within 20 years once the new LRT lines are started to be built.
Seeing the new subway train surface after TTC June 22nd 2005 meeting where it was decided to rebuild 102 of the current CLRV’s and purchase 100 LRT’s, I understand why the first prototype LRT would not show up until 2010-12 now because Bombardier Thunder Bay plant could not deal with both orders at the same time. Again, putting all your eggs in one basket has it downside and this is one good example of it.
It does not take 5-7 years to design a LRT for TTC today considering what is on the market today. If it is being done in-house, then it being done as a make work program and keeping people on the payroll who should not be there in the first place. Based on my background it should take no more than 2 years doing it from scratch using pen and paper and no use of AutoCAD.
Both I and Vice Chair Joe Mihevc stated at that meeting that there are no reasons why an RFP could not be issued either by year end or by March 2006 to obtain not one, but 3 prototype LRT’s for testing starting in 2007.
There are at least 5 manufactures world wide who could meet TTC special needs for an off the shelf model with very little modification. Since TTC is going to purchase over 248 LRT’s not only to replace the existing fleet as well expand it to meet the needs for the Waterfront, Kingston Rd, Eglinton Ave and Don Mills LRT lines over the next 10 years, the cost to purchase non standard bogies over standard bogies is only going to cost next to nothing.
All you are going to do is add 70 mm more of shaft material to meet TTC track gauge and that should run around $100 per shaft at the outside or $600 per car or $148,000 for 248 cars. This is based on 3 sets of bogies per car. If a 4th bogie is required, than it will cost $800 a car.
Then there is the costs of building a new casting die for the bogie itself and the extra material for the casting. You would be looking at about $2,000 per bogie more than a standard one based on the size of the order.
If TTC bought steerable wheels to cut down on the squealing of wheels as the cars take the sharp turns as well the wear and tear on the rail and the wheels themselves, you might be looking at about $50,000 per car. I am not up to date on current cost at this time.
Upgrading the propulsion system along with a number of things including the bogies, it should not cost more than $150,000 for a non standard car over a standard gauge car and I am pushing it. That does not workout to be the $1 million dollars modification per car as stated.
Using Bathurst St 8% grade as the benchmark for the propulsion system for all LRT’s is a waste of money considering you only need 30 cars to handle Bathurst St in the first place. Once you get Dundas rebuilt for LRT’s or having a line on Jane St, you will not have any grades over 5% and there would be no need to use Bathurst St anymore to service St Clair.
What is not stated is the $60 million for a new carhouse as Roncesvalles would be lucky to see 60 LRT’s stored there while Russell would see close to 80 due to the new length of the LRT’s. This means that both current carhouses can only hold 140 cars, meaning that there has to be 108 on the road at all times. There are two ideas floating around to deal with the storage issues and one would see the Commissioners St garage converted to handle the new LRT’s and converting Russell to buses or building a new LRT garage in Scarborough.
If you factor in this $60 million for the new LRT’s carhouse, this would work out to be $241,935.48 per car. By rights, TTC will need 2 new carhouses to serve the north east-west end of the city as new LRT lines are built up there in the coming years.
Then there is the cost of rebuilding all loops and curves that are under 40 foot radius to 40 foot plus radius and there are not that many of them that should be in the neighborhood of $20 million except for Union Station. I am surprised TTC has not enlarged the radius when the track work was rebuilt.
Union Station will have to be totally rebuilt not only for the new LRT’s, but for the subway platform expansion along with the Waterfront expansion that will see 5,000 plus riders per hour at peak time. It will cost close to $500 million to build the new loop to handle 8 LRT’s at the same time using a centre platform.
What every way I look at this $1 million extra for modification as stated, the best I could come up that comes close to this figure, is $400,000 per car that includes a few bells and whisles and that pushing it.
As to the cost of the LRT pegged at $3 million per car, this comes close to the figure that I have used from day one as well MTO, Vice Chair Joe Mihevc and it was used at June 22nd meeting.
Now if you start to throw in the cost of the new smart card, readers, counter and farebox along with various vending machines, then you are going to be close to the $1 million extra per car for modifications.
Once these new LRT’s show up, the lack of accessibility will be finally be addressed for the city core.
I have recommended that double end cars be purchased as they will require half the amount of land that is required for today’s loops, let alone the extra land it is really needed to provide a larger loop. This will help to eliminate the squealing of the wheels are they turn that all the local residents complaint about who live next or near a loop in the first place. Also to allow a driver to go the opposite way on the opposite direction track if a line gets shut down without having someone at the other end telling them what to do about backing up. It would require some crossovers along the routes at various sections. There are pros and cons for going single ends as it would cut down on the cost of the units in the first place and hold a few more riders.
They will come with pantograph for a number of reasons. Drivers do not have to worry about the pantograph coming off the wire as they cross another route or switching like they do today for the poles. Then they don’t have to get off the car into traffic without fear for their lives as well dealing with the weather to put the pole back on the wire.
The first 4 CLRV's came with pantograph, but were removed as it was unknown at the time if the existing overhead could support them in the first place with out testing them on the system in the first place.
Then management does not have to worry about when to put ice cutters on the poles like they do today as the pantograph have a wider contact area and this allows better contact and more area to cut the ice.
Since TTC has being replacing the existing wires these past few years, the wires will support the pantograph.
The LRT’s will come with 2 accessibly spaces as well storage for 4 bikes.
All new LRT’s will come with couplers to allow them to operate in pair that will be operated by one driver only.
This is where the real cost saving starts to come in to play. Having only one driver in place of 2 has its plus’s and minus, but saving $60/hr for 10 hours a day is $600 a day times the number of pairs and that starts to add up. Labour cost represents close to 70%-75% of transit operation costs today and is only going to get higher in time.
They will come with doors on both sides of the unit and will reduce the seating by 8.
Moving to a vehicle that cannot only carry the same ridership of two buses or 4 buses using pairs, this will mean there will be 2-3 less drivers on the road or are available for more service. This is not what the union likes to hear about cutting drivers or having less drivers with more service, but transit systems have to come up with ways to help to keep operation costs down as riders will walk away if the fare keeps on going up and up regardless what gas costs, as well the continuations of sardine loads on the current system.
At the end of the day, TTC is better off buying all 248 LRT’s in one order to replace the current fleet on a one to one basis regardless of increased of ridership capacity, as it will be needed to help the city grow and maintaining the current service. Cutting service because of the increase carrying capacity will chase riders away.
If you saw the Olympic commercials for Bombardier, you will notice that the LRT in the commercial had 5 sections and it did a sharp 90 degree turn similar to TTC turns. It was shot in Strausberg Germany. When I first saw it I said there is TTC’s new LRT’s and Bombardier was saying to TTC “we have your new LRT already and it is an off the shelf model that will meet your current needsâ€.
Let’s get the RFP rolling this year and get these new LRT’s on the road by 2009. Let it be a true RFP and TTC will get not only a better price, but delivery date. There needs to be some options for more cars to be ordered on top of the 248 as they are going to be needed as the system expands over the next 10 years.
With the current EA in process for the Waterfront, it should be approved by 2008 with construction completed by 2010-11. The only thing the Waterfront Developers want to see on these new tracks is the new LRT’s as it will help showcase the Waterfront. I agree that the New LRT’s should be assigned there 100%, just like St Clair should be, as these are the 2 main showcases for what the rest of the city is going to get and it will be an easier fight to get them into areas that don’t see streetcars now.
One thing to keep in mind, a 40 foot bus can only carry 3,300 at peak time as per Ridership Growth Plan or 4,500 at crush load with a bus operating every one minute. A 60 foot bus can carry 4,500-6,000 per one minute of service. An LRT can carry 4,500-6,700 every 2 minutes or a two pair every 4 minute with the same load.
Dave
, while I'm driving under their wires...