TTC: Complete Subway Station Ridership Figures

[spmarshall]

Actually the TTC parking lots aren't the only places where commuters park. In my neighbourhood (Islington station), I can name you tons of places where you can park for free and still be within a 10 minute walk from the subway. In Kipling there is even more.

Once in a while, when I was in Brampton and I wasn't yet working full-time, I'd park in Honeydale Mall for free and wait for a 111 or 112 bus.

Now that I live in Toronto, and take the Spadina Line, I'm kind of thinking it is almost time for the TTC to take all trains up to Downsview in the AM, instead of short-turning half at St. Clair West. More so than last year (when I would occasionally get on at Yorkdale at the AM Peak), the trains are filling up north of St. Clair West, with all seats gone by Yorkdale or Lawrence West, and pretty packed by Eg. West. It wouldn't cost that much more, and there's no short-turning in the PM peak.

I wouldn't benefit much by this, as I can always get a seat myself, but ridership is clearly building up again.

 

[doady]

Islington does have an office building across the street, as well as apartment buildings a short walk away. As well, it is closer to actual neighbourhoods, compared to Kipling. Bus connections aren't everything in life you know.

Mislav is saying that the only reason Islington and Kipling have high ridership is because of cars, and you have a problem with me saying that buses contribute more to the ridership?

So to make your commute go faster, you would inconvenience the thousands of people that use these stations each day. Have you ever actually stood at the platforms at any of these stations? People DO use them.

Yeah, OBVIOUSLY there are a few people are using them, otherwise their ridership numbers would be zero. That wasn't my point though.

 

[miketoronto]

Old Mill happens to be the transfer point to the Prince Edward bus route. People use it.

 

[doady]

We should also divert all buses west of Bathurst to funnel into Kipling station, close every station between Kipling and Bathurst, and run the trains express over the whole stretch. Do the same for the other 3 lines, too. Think of the net benefit!

What is with the sarcasm? Did I suggest that stations with decent ridership be closed down? Did you see me suggest that Islington be closed down. NO, I DIDN'T THINK SO.

 

[adma]

Of all the problems people might have with the subway, the "speed issue" is the least of it. Therefore, closing down stations just to increase speed doesn't make sense--if "slowness" factors in, it's because of the experience of getting to the subway rather than actually riding it. Or, if it happens when riding it, it's because of mechanical or passenger difficulties that have next to nothing to do with superfluous stops.

if anything, I can see more demand for new stations at Blythwood and Yonge Blvd than for Rosedale and Summerhill to be shut down...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"What is with the sarcasm? Did I suggest that stations with decent ridership be closed down? Did you see me suggest that Islington be closed down. NO, I DIDN'T THINK SO."

OK, I propose we divert all MT buses to Old Mill station and all TTC buses that serve Islington station to Summerhill station. Now each of those stations will see 30,000 riders a day and Islington will be reduced to the same indecent level of ridership as Chester. By your reasoning, we will then have to close Islington and not the other two.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Now that I live in Toronto, and take the Spadina Line, I'm kind of thinking it is almost time for the TTC to take all trains up to Downsview in the AM, instead of short-turning half at St. Clair West.

As someone who often gets on at St. Clair West SB during the AM rush, I'd have to agree. The short-turning really messes up the train-by-train ridership all the way down until Union (where I get off, as do most other passengers).

Trains that start at Downsview are generally standing room only by St. Clair West, and have crush loads from St. George until Queen's Park.

The trains that come into service at St. Clair West are relatively empty until St. George. They will pick up either a few or a lot at St. George depending on the timing of the BD trains, but will still be fairly roomy for the whole trip.

Having all trains travel to and from Downsview would even out the crowding levels southbound, as well as stop the inconveniencing of the NB passengers (who have a 50% chance of getting kicked of at St. Clair). As it stands now, I will often just wait the 2-3 minutes at St. Clair so I can be guaranteed a seat when the next train comes into service.

 

[doady]

Closing down the station is a matter of saving money too. And the TTC is all about saving money, no matter what. After all, why else would they close down Islington's washrooms instead of Kipling's, even though Islington has more ridership?

I know you guys are obsessed with the idea of making the TTC profitable too, either by imposing fare hikes on the outlying poor areas of city in the form of a zone fare system or trashing the suburban bus service just because it is unprofitable.

Closing down these very unprofitable subway stations is the same sort of idea, and it would benefit the 99.9% of riders who do not use them. It would not affect ridership nearly as much as a zone fare system or trashing bus service would.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

doady:

How much benefit would closing three stations provide, in terms of travel time, labour and maintenance cost, relative to the inconvinence it would cause (and I might add, those being inconvienced are paying property taxes to maintain the system, unlike riders using TTC from MT).

Under your logic, if applied to MT, we should have no bus stops on most routes beyond those at intersections and terminus, because of the abysmally low ridership. I don't need to remind you the sheer absurdity of this "logic", I suppose?

AoD

 

[rbtaylor]

in terms of travel time

About 20 seconds per station with low ridership. Dwell times usually are not very long at these stations and subway trains decelerate and accelerate pretty quickly. Doors are only open for about 5 seconds at Rosedale and Summerhill. Trains enter these stations at close to full speed and are usually back to full speed by the time they're fully out again.

Time Sheppard to DonMills, then the equivalent stretch on Bloor/Danforth during an off-peak time.

Reducing loading/unloading times at busy stations would have a larger impact in travel time than closing stations with low ridership.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Closing down these very unprofitable subway stations is the same sort of idea, and it would benefit the 99.9% of riders who do not use them."

About 2% of subway riders - not 0.1% - use these 5 stations combined. The TTC can't afford to keep maybe 20 additional people on staff yet they can afford to alienate 2% of their subway riders? These 5 stations help the TTC earn almost $10 million per year. You'd also need to start running buses through the service gaps the closures would create, costing more money.

 

[cdl42]

"I know you guys are obsessed with the idea of making the TTC profitable too, either by imposing fare hikes on the outlying poor areas of city in the form of a zone fare system or trashing the suburban bus service just because it is unprofitable."

Is it an "obession" or is it "trying to find realistic solutions to real problems"?

Not everyone in the outlying areas are travelling downtown, many travel to jobs within their area and a zone system would benefit them as well. Never mind the fact that a zone system would increase the financial viability of express services to those outlying areas greatly.

 

[green22]

"That's one of reasons why Islington and Kipling stations have such a high number. Islington has two massive parking lots as well a smaller one every time I pass them by on my to Islington, they're pretty much full. "

For many years, car parking has only been about 2% of the total subway ridership despite the large amount of suburban stations which have parking lots next to them. The TTC is aware that if it redeveloped all of these parking lots not only would it gain atleast 2% more subway ridership, (plus some new bus ridership), but could begin earning money instead of losing money on this land.

Unfortunately, from the mayor on down there is a feeling that the city must provide inducements for offices to locate downtown by providing a free option for suburbanites to come down and park at subway stops. This is especially the case at the ends of the lines. No upper level of government is going to extend the York or Scarborough subway without making sure that at the end of the line are large free parking lots to help drivers living in outer Toronto or 905. As the 905 becomes more politically powerful expect those parking lots to become larger and the lines to be more 905 focussed, just as many of the previous extensions were designed to help the growth of the politically powerful suburbs of years gone past; Scarborough, Etobicoke and North York.

When you look at the subway ridership stats you can see how hopeless it is for a subway system to expect to get a large share of its ridership from parking lots each of which is used by slightly less than 1 vehicle per day (TTC 2003). What's worse is parking lots add passengers in the most expensive times to provide for, one way in in the AM, one-way out at PM.

Who's going to pay for the prime land for a two thousand car parking lot on prime land at the Steeles terminus of the proposed subway from now until...the TTC.
Parking lot oriented subway lines are based on the suburban sections of subway lines in Atlanta and Washington etc, but these kinds of systems require huge GO type subsidies of over 4$ per rider, while the TTC currently gets around 40c per rider. Will the Province change it's mind and fund TTC riders at GO levels?

Provincial policies are aimed at 'congestion relief' and maximizing political points, which means pleasing suburban drivers/politicians, not keeping the TTC afloat, helping 'captive' urban riders or promoting smart growth. As drum has said, expect the 403 busway (parking lot connecter) to get funding as well as GO to Clarington and Barrie that will make certain developers/land owners happy.

 

[cdl42]

re: Short turning @ St. Clair W.
From drum118 and James Bow over at transit-toronto

> Reading page 8(operation) [in the Spadina extension EA] on the following link is interesting as it
> calls for moving the short turn trains at St Clair to Glencarin and
> never heard that at any of the EA meetings.

Looking at this report, the reason this was never mentioned in the EA
meeting is that apparently it's to be implemented this year, regardless
of the extension to York U.

This is interesting. I guess it's designed to increase morning peak
service to Eglinton West station. Anybody know the exact date this
change is to occur?

 

[samsonyuen]

I'd like to see Glencairn East and Yonge Boulevard stations as well, but I don't think there's enough support for it?