TTC: Automatic Train Control and Subway Platform Screen Doors

[daptive]

I am sorry if this has already been discussed, but does the TTC have the additional trains ATC will allow it to use?

Only going off memory here. But I believe Line 2 ATC will come with the new rolling stock for Line 2.

 

[Northern Light]

I am sorry if this has already been discussed, but does the TTC have the additional trains ATC will allow it to use?

Only going off memory here. But I believe Line 2 ATC will come with the new rolling stock for Line 2.

As @daptive notes; the current Line 2 Rollingstock is not ATC capable, nor will it be retrofitted.

But, the plan is to have entirely ATC capable rollingstock on Line 2 by the time the SSE extension opens.

 

[Allandale25]

Question by Jonathan Goldsbie and response by @Steve Munro (via twitter)

Q: I haven't been following this nearly as closely as I used to, but is the additional capacity still needed quite so urgently? With the general decrease in daily commuting, is the downtown portion of the Yonge line still bursting at the seams during rush hour?

SM:

This is a tricky question. In January 2020 (pre covid) line 1 run 25.5 trains/hour plus four "gap" trains that could be inserted to cover for delays. Today the schedule calls for 20 trains/hour plus six gap trains. (1)

(2) Therefore the capacity is lower and the crowding is greater than i[t] would be if we had 100% of pre-covid service. An important point about ATC is that it allows trains to run closer together and this is important for gap trains which can sneak in close behind a regular run.

(3) Similarly, if there is a minor delay, the backlog behind it is not quite as bad because trains can run closer together. This works until the pack arrives at a terminal where the physical layout constrains the headway of turnarounds. Ideally short turns avoid this.

(4) Unless the TTC reduces travel times on line 1, scaling up the current service from every 3 minutes to every 2 (am peak) would require 27 more trains (assuming no added gap trains). This would make a scheduled service of 81 trains plus about 16 spares or 97 total.

(5) TTC only owns 76 6-car TR trainsets, so they need more. There will probably be some saving from reduced travel time but this will also require some operational/crewing changes I won't get into here. In brief trains have to turn around briskly at terminals even if crews don't.

(6) More trains also means more storage space, and I haven't even counted yet the trains needed for the Richmond Hill extension. There will be a yard of some kind in RH but the exact location and specs depends on which rumours you believe.

[in another tweet that asked if the TTC has enough space in the yards for more TRs, SM said: No. There is some capacity to expand Wilson, but putting all of the trains on one side of the "U" makes for severe problems at end/start of service. That's another reason for a yard in Richmond Hill. There's a similar issue on Line 2 with almost all trains at Greenwood.

(7) I don't think that the YNSE budget includes the cost of a new yard, so that's another unfunded piece of the budget. Anyhow ...

(8) It is not clear what the future of downtown office space will be. Just because people work shorter weeks and take less space/worker does not mean that existing towers (never mind anything new) won't fill up again maybe even more densely than pre-covid.

(9) It's *really* premature to say we don't need the capacity. The last time this happened, in the early 90s, we ditched the priority for the Relief Line and committed to the RH line thinking there was spare capacity when reality was that this was recession-induced.

(10/10) We needed new signals on Line 1 anyhow, and ATC is (a) current technology and (b) gives much more flexibility. Now let's hope that they don't delay replacing the nearly 60 year old plant on Line 2.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Anyone know what the end-to-end travel time savings from ATC are expected to be? IIRC Line 1 has an end-to-end travel time of a little over an hour right now.. I'm really curious to see exactly how much faster they expect the trains to be.

 

[Northern Light]

Anyone know what the end-to-end travel time savings from ATC are expected to be? IIRC Line 1 has an end-to-end travel time of a little over an hour right now.. I'm really curious to see exactly how much faster they expect the trains to be.

I can't find the full line data just atm.

But in July, the TTC reporting savings of 3.5 minutes on the portion of the line between Vaughan and Rosedale:

Faster TTC subway signal now on Line 1 after almost a decade of weekend closures

The TTC says a new modernized signalling system that will allow trains to run more quickly and more frequently is now fully up and running on Line 1 after almost a decade of upgrade work.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

 

[cplchanb]

As @daptive notes; the current Line 2 Rollingstock is not ATC capable, nor will it be retrofitted.

But, the plan is to have entirely ATC capable rollingstock on Line 2 by the time the SSE extension opens.

If that's the case they should get on it quick
They only have about 7 years and they havnt really progressed beyond preliminary talks for new rolling stock

 

[nfitz]

Anyone know what the end-to-end travel time savings from ATC are expected to be? IIRC Line 1 has an end-to-end travel time of a little over an hour right now.. I'm really curious to see exactly how much faster they expect the trains to be.

Though at the same time, I thought there'd been some padding added in the last decade or two.

Another big test is how the traffic jam at Finch station, especially in rush hour, changes. Presumably it will be improved somwhat.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I can't find the full line data just atm.

But in July, the TTC reporting savings of 3.5 minutes on the portion of the line between Vaughan and Rosedale:

View attachment 429751

Faster TTC subway signal now on Line 1 after almost a decade of weekend closures

The TTC says a new modernized signalling system that will allow trains to run more quickly and more frequently is now fully up and running on Line 1 after almost a decade of upgrade work.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

hmm, so probably about 5 minutes total then. Decent, better than I was expecting overall.

 

[rm20010]

Random question, been a long time since my last post:

With ATC being active on the entirety of line 1, and I assume reading up thread work cars can also use ATC, how long before the TTC turns off the cab side signals?
My use of the subway, especially line 1 has not been as active as years past, but I'm assuming the signals shifted to a blinking green with ATC (acknowledging that it's safe to go?).

Also with ATC, would grade timing signals (blinking red, to yellow-white) be a thing still, now with ATC and block spacing no longer applicable? I assume the emergency brake trip arms stay there as a failsafe, but the operators no longer need to slow their train down lest they run a red.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

With ATC being active on the entirety of line 1, and I assume reading up thread work cars can also use ATC, how long before the TTC turns off the cab side signals?

Can the TTC turn them off? What if a train without ATC (eg, T1s or maintenance vehicles) needs to travel on Line 1 for whatever reason?

 

[beatle04]

I assume the emergency brake trip arms stay there as a failsafe

I'm pretty sure the trip arms were tied down as ATC was activated along the line. I'd imagine the failsafe is if ATC loses contact with the train or the train isn't obeying ATC commands, it'll estop.

 

[smallspy]

Random question, been a long time since my last post:

With ATC being active on the entirety of line 1, and I assume reading up thread work cars can also use ATC, how long before the TTC turns off the cab side signals?
My use of the subway, especially line 1 has not been as active as years past, but I'm assuming the signals shifted to a blinking green with ATC (acknowledging that it's safe to go?).

Also with ATC, would grade timing signals (blinking red, to yellow-white) be a thing still, now with ATC and block spacing no longer applicable? I assume the emergency brake trip arms stay there as a failsafe, but the operators no longer need to slow their train down lest they run a red.

All of the wayside signals from the old system are bagged and covered - and their trip arms wired down - to indicate that they are no longer in service. I think that they have pulled a couple of signal heads out near Wilson, but it will take some time for them to remove the rest of them, along with many miles of extraneous wiring.

The blinking green signals that you see at a lot of stations are brand new signals for the new interlocking plants installed as part of the new ATC/ATO system. They aren't going anywhere.

Can the TTC turn them off? What if a train without ATC (eg, T1s or maintenance vehicles) needs to travel on Line 1 for whatever reason?

The system allows non-ATC-equipped trains to operate, but will limit them to one per "block" between interlockings for safety reasons. This will obviously greatly degrade the capacity of the system, however.

Dan

 

[EnviroTO]

The speed of my commute is more impacted by slow orders than signaling post pandemic. It seems that despite the weekend closures they haven't prioritized getting tracks up to spec.

 

[lead82]

Yes exactly this. The slow orders on tracks is horrendous and show how bad the system is maintained. Why is there no information anywhere on the duration of the slow orders, how long they are there for and why new ones pop up. For example, before ATC on line 1 finished there was a long pause in the tunnel before entering Eglinton south bound. Now the train moves like a crawl north from Eglinton to Lawrence. Why? They fix one side and break the other.

The crawl just north of Bloor is another horrendously slow crawl. What are they doing and why does it take so long? If it’s to replace a piece of track then why wasn’t it done when the line was closed for signal upgrades .

 

[LNahid2000]

Yep, the slow order southbound between Rosedale and Bloor is the worst, and it's been like this for months.