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Transit Fantasy Maps

well priority wise I think a subway down don mills which becomes a dRL and stops at UNION or Queen west (bathurst queen area) is priority number 1 IMO

Priority number 2 is BLOOR extension to STC
 
This is not so much a fantasy map as a "what could have been" map, but it fits the general idea of the thread. A few days ago, I was sitting in my chair and I thought "Huh, I wonder what Toronto would look like if the 1912 rapid transit referendum had passed." After a few days of tinkering in mspaint and reading up on history, this is the result: a map of TTC service in an alternate 1932 (based on a map from Mike's Transit Stop).



The construction was delayed for several years by the outbreak of World War One, allowing for some revision to the plans, especially in regards to station spacing, which was greatly reduced over the original concept. Shovels were in the ground for the Yonge Subway before the end of the war, and it opened in 1921, followed by streetcar-subways along Queen and Bloor during the economic boom of the 1920s. Now, in the wake of the stock market crash, the TTC's future expansion is in doubt for the time being. Major butterflies include a Leaside streetcar, Rogers Road, Oakwood, and Weston streetcars that go to the subway (with the first partially replacing the Davenport streetcar), retained streetcar service to Lambton and Islington (with Dundas cut back to Bloor), an extended and separate Lansdowne streetcar service, the replacement of the Dupont streetcar with the Bay streetcar, extended Dufferin and Parliament streetcars, and some alternate bus routings in the north.

Yonge stations, north to south: St. Clair, Shaftesbury, Crescent, Bloor, Wellesley, Carlton, Dundas, Queen, King, Union.

Queen stations, west to east: Roncesvalles, Lansdowne, Dufferin, Dovercourt, Ossington, Trinity Park, Bathurst, Spadina, John, University, City Hall, Yonge, Church, Sherbourne, Parliament, Sumach, Broadview, Carlaw.

Bloor stations, west to east: Roncesvalles, Lansdowne, Dufferin, Dovercourt, Ossington, Christie, Bathurst, Spadina, Avenue, Bay, Yonge, Sherbourne, Broadview

It is not clear from the map, but the lines entering the Queen subway terminate at the end of the subway section. Lakeshore runs to Carlaw, Queen and Beach to Roncesvalles.
 
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Darkstar416 said:

You've pretty much captured what my version of Transit City would look like with this one map. All I think it is missing is a slight extension of the Bloor-Danforth west to 427/Cloverdale (which apparently Steve Munro agrees with).
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Alas, all of these subways could have been built for the cost of Transit City - including the Don Mills subway up to Sheppard. Hopefully the next mayor of Toronto is smart enough to cancel Transit City before a single dollar is spent on construction, and instead focus on doubling the size of the subway.
 
Chuck said:
Alas, all of these subways could have been built for the cost of Transit City - including the Don Mills subway up to Sheppard.
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How can you say this? Subway is coming in about $300-million per kilometre compared to about $60-million per kilometre for LRT.
 
nfitz said:
How can you say this? Subway is coming in about $300-million per kilometre compared to about $60-million per kilometre for LRT.
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That explains the $150 million per km cost of the Sheppard subway and the $70 million per km cost of the Sheppard LRT.
 
^^ And that's even with Sheppard's horribly overbuilt stations. Imagine what it could have been if it proper sized stations. Maybe even $130 or $140 m/km?
 
doady said:
That explains the $150 million per km cost of the Sheppard subway and the $70 million per km cost of the Sheppard LRT.
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Oddly enough, Sheppard Subway does not meet current Fire Code requirements for new subway lines. You will find you need to add ~$25million per km for underground segments to meet these for the tunnels and who knows how much for any new station requirements.

If you really want to reduce subway construction costs you will need to take a very hard look at current fire code in Ontario. Minimum tunnel dimensions, number of surface access points, minimum station dimensions/exit points, etc. are all defined there.

Almost nothing about the original Yonge line segment is at code. In fact, I'm not sure you could have built that line at the time if modern fire codes were in effect, the buildings would have squeezed it off Yonge street or much deeper underground. Tunnels need to be much wider, station platforms wider, more surface exits, etc.
 
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^
That is a good point. Who exactly sets these standards and why? Given the obsession with safety in Ontario it is never popular to suggest that safety legislation should be pealed back, but I'm interested to see what the process is for determining these standards. As far as I know the only accidental deaths on the TTC was during the Russell Hill subway accident, and that didn't really have anything to do with subway design. I don't get how Sheppard could be considered unsatisfactory.

I dunno, I am all for safety and such, but if nobody has died in Toronto from smaller tunnels or stations I don't really get where the idea that existing facilities are unsafe comes from.
 
There's plenty of ways to save tons of money on subway lines. Billions of dollars, literally, can be saved on construction in corridors like Don Mills and Eglinton via shallow trenches. A trench won't work along spots like King Street and there's places where topography rules them out, but long stretches can be built cheaply and quickly, featuring stations similar to, say, Rosedale, by digging a few shallow trenches. Also, the more subway lines we have, the fewer and smaller bus terminals we'll need at stations.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
And it only gets more expensive the longer we wait.
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That's why they should have built eglinton as a subway instead of waiting since they already know it will be need to be heavy rail in the future.

I don't trust the TTC numbers because if you can choose between 2.75$ to get to the airport and 20$ to go to union, what would you choose?

Might not be the case of people here but I think a vast majority will take the crosstown instead of the Blue and they will leave home earlier to save money.
Dumb Miller...

As for Sheppard, North York Center is a ''Downtown'' or almost but really close. (depends on the point of view). I live 30 Minutes from there by bus and work at Sheppard-Yonge and I say it is and its growing...FAST. SHeppard Avenue West and the Downsview PArk area have a lot of projects...

When Sheppard will become a subway, Miller will be known as one of the most irresponsible mayor there was.

Succesful 1st class city would never make that kind of obvious mistake, not even Montreal. We all know a subway to NDG is needed and yet they prefer to wait until its possible to build it and increase bus service than selling that LRT will solve the whole problem... DUMB
 
Ansem said:
That's why they should have built eglinton as a subway instead of waiting since they already know it will be need to be heavy rail in the future.

I don't trust the TTC numbers because if you can choose between 2.75$ to get to the airport and 20$ to go to union, what would you choose?
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Pearson Airport as a whole has about 115k passengers per day + 20k staff/local workers with no real rush hour period, and a good chunk of those passengers are just connecting through Pearson and do not have Toronto as a destination.

If TTC was to carry everybody destined for Toronto (not Barrie, Mississauga, etc.), then Eglinton + Finch LRT trains would be more than enough to handle the load at reasonable frequencies.
 
nfitz said:
There's about 12-15 years of inflation since Sheppard was constructed. And MTO's inflation index for tenders is running about 10% per year for some recent years, and has increased 99.4% in the last 12 years. You couldn't start Sheppard now and pay $150 million per km!
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You heard it here first, folks...construction on the Sheppard subway was apparently finished in 1997!
 
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