Second_in_pie
Senior Member
^^ The idea was that HSR-izing the Lakeshore and Georgetown corridors would speed up Go service considerably due to better track conditions.
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Whoaccio
Senior Member
It doesn't have to be. There are tons of examples of HSR systems functioning as commuter rail. Spain has done this quite well I believe, and the TGV has had some success serving areas around Paris. Many comparative studies tend to show that HSR is most competitive with highways, not air travel, which tends to work against long-distance express trains. Historically, it was pretty common for intercity services to share tracks with commuter services within urban areas. I think this is a rare case where we happen to want to build HSR on a route which would, in all likelihood, end up paralleling our busiest by a wide margin commuter corridor. We ought to double down.
To be clear, I don't think we should use an intercity highspeed train for commuter service. If we ever do want to have a TOM HSR though, we will need to build a high speed corridor capable of accommodating it more or less from scratch. Assuming one intercity train per hour, we should still be able to squeeze in another 15 or so high-ish speed trains per hour to take advantage of the route.
Were we to build any kind of high speed rail (i.e. 200+ kph) it would necessitate entirely new tracks and would be largely incompatible with existing corridors. Operationally, any high speed rail corridor would be entirely separate of near by conventional tracks. If we did want to run HSR rolling stock down existing corridors, even with major track work, they wouldn't be able to operate much higher than 120 kph which would defeat the entire point. When they looked at the issue in '95, they figured that there was no difference in cost between upgrading existing tracks to HSR standards and simply building from scratch.
So, if we ever do build HSR, odds are it wouldn't have any effect on corridors like Georgetown or Lakeshore.
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dunkalunk
Senior Member
I think odds are that if HSR is built, It would use at least part or all of the Lakeshore and Georgetown corridors within the GTA for track alignment. While the argument for building a new rail corridor as opposed to upgrading an old one may make sense outside of the immediate urbanized section of the GTHA, where there is plenty of land, there are no more continuous, undeveloped corridors within the GTHA to run a high speed rail line. any high speed rail sceme would almost certainly have an effect on these corridors, unless you wanted to exproprate massive amounts of land within the city. Grade separations will need to be made, and should be made within urban areas regardless of whether or not HSR becomes reality, for service reliability, less traffic congestion, and safety.
I do agree that High Speed rail trackeage and conventional rail trackeage (hopefully by this point, electrified) should largely, be kept separate. This does not mean that GO or VIA should be barred from putting service on this trackeage, so long as it is an express service (for example, Hamilton-Aldershot-Union, Pearson/Brampton-Union, ect.)
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andrewpmk
Senior Member
For high speed trains to the east (Ottawa and Montreal), a high speed line could be built in the Gatineau hydro corridor, which is dead straight and would allow high speeds (with proper noise abatement, of course). (Trains would travel in a tunnel through Flemingdon Park to the Don Valley and then connect to upgraded tracks there and run to Union Station). If the Pickering Airport is ever built a stop could be added there.
For high speed trains to the west (London/Windsor), trains would have to run on existing tracks along either the Georgetown or Lakeshore West lines until the Peel Region boundary, then a high speed line would start from there. Converting either of those lines to high speed operation is pretty much impossible. (My suspicion is that HSR west of Toronto will never be built because it is uneconomic, but this is a fantasy thread...)
For high speed trains to the west (London/Windsor), trains would have to run on existing tracks along either the Georgetown or Lakeshore West lines until the Peel Region boundary, then a high speed line would start from there. Converting either of those lines to high speed operation is pretty much impossible. (My suspicion is that HSR west of Toronto will never be built because it is uneconomic, but this is a fantasy thread...)
Long Island Mike
Senior Member
10/31 Transit Map of Toronto...
Doady: Looking at your map it is practically how I would like to see Toronto's transit system look eventually - with a Queen Street Subway,The Sheppard Extension E to the Scarborough Town Centre vicinity,
and the replacement of the Scarborough LRT with a Bloor/Danforth extension
prime new lines. I like the LRT line choices also.
If this system gets built this way I feel that Toronto would benefit well for the future...LI MIKE
Doady: Looking at your map it is practically how I would like to see Toronto's transit system look eventually - with a Queen Street Subway,The Sheppard Extension E to the Scarborough Town Centre vicinity,
and the replacement of the Scarborough LRT with a Bloor/Danforth extension
prime new lines. I like the LRT line choices also.
If this system gets built this way I feel that Toronto would benefit well for the future...LI MIKE
Dan416
Senior Member
Those things you mention are all sought by SOS.
MisterF
Senior Member
That's a good idea. Except I don't really think a subway is needed east of the Beaches, so I turned it north to hit Bloor at Main. The Bloor line east of there would become part of the Queen line, which would also replace the SRT. Kill two transfers with one stone.
The airport would be well served with the Eglinton LRT and frequent service regional rail. I don't really see the need for a subway there. Does Kingston Road really get enough transit ridership for a subway line?
I changed the map to show the frequent service lines in black and limited service lines in grey.
Fixed.
Take a look at a hydro corridor outside the city someday. They're not flat. They go straight over hills, cliffs, and other obstacles - they don't respond to topography at all because they don't have to. There's a ski area in Durham Region where a hydro corridor cuts across it halfway up the hill. They're basically useless for high speed rail, or even highways.
andrewpmk
Senior Member
I'm only proposing that it follow the Gatineau hydro corridor through Toronto, where it is mostly flat except for the Rouge River and Highland Creek. In any case, high speed rail can use bridges or tunnels to traverse any uneven terrain, which it would have to do anyway even if it didn't follow a hydro corridor.
MisterF
Senior Member
True, but even for HSR it's often cheaper to go around obstacles than to build unnecessary bridges and tunnels. HSR lines are rarely straight like hydro corridors.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
Running a high speed rail line (or any transit corridor) so close to a trunk hydro corridor could also be considered a hugh liability issue, at least according to Hydro One.
christof53
New Member
Started this a long time ago. The LRT lines would be like the Calgary LRT but with more frequent stops - and never stopping at red lights. GO lines electrified and upgraded to high frequencies with local and express trains. Basically the subway and LRT would provide rapid transit where there are no rail corridors, and the regional rail lines would provide it where there are rail corridors.
I really, really like this. If only this is were Transit City, I think the majority would support it. Well done.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
A conceptual simplified map of Light Rail in KW:
The thick dark blue line is the proposed Adapted BRT extension to Cambridge via Highway 8, 401, Hespeler Road and Water Street. (bus bypass shoulders on 8/401 with mixed service with priority lighting on the streets) The blue lines on the map are the bus cross-corridors. Some stations have been moved or added to better line up with these cross corridors.
Although the alignment is mostly set in stone, station locations still have the opportunity to be changed. It is my hope that the proposed route splits are removed entirely in the final design. Its a bit ridiculous to expect that a rapid transit line can be built through a built up area without at least some minor demolition.
The thick dark blue line is the proposed Adapted BRT extension to Cambridge via Highway 8, 401, Hespeler Road and Water Street. (bus bypass shoulders on 8/401 with mixed service with priority lighting on the streets) The blue lines on the map are the bus cross-corridors. Some stations have been moved or added to better line up with these cross corridors.
Although the alignment is mostly set in stone, station locations still have the opportunity to be changed. It is my hope that the proposed route splits are removed entirely in the final design. Its a bit ridiculous to expect that a rapid transit line can be built through a built up area without at least some minor demolition.
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EnviroTO
Senior Member
The integration of this line and a new KW railway station needs to be a priority. On the initial plan it looks like the LRT goes under the railway corridor on King while the road stays on the surface with a plan to hook up to a railway station later. The plan should be to fully grade separate King and Weber, to close Waterloo, Duke, and Ahrens crossings, and build a new train station with the LRT coming into it running underground in the station area emerging on King north of Moore and on Charles south of Victoria. Is the LRT still planned to run on Duke as well?
hbl33
Active Member
The revised version could consolidate as a joint hybrid line for both B/D and Queen Subway you've proposed. Both B/D and Queen share tracks (from McCowan to Main Street), giving commuters to switch from one to another.
Just some questions:
On the west B-D line, some stations are omitted from the list. Right now, only 3 stations are present between Sherway and Bloor/Jane. What stations are present in the line in the map (Old Mill, Royal York, Islington, Kipling, East Mall)?
Next, the west extension of Eglinton LRT to Mississauga seems questionable. Since Sauga Transitway would be built along 403/Eastgate/Eglinton, does it make sense for LRT branch to overlap with BRT? (BRT is also missing from the list)
In addition, I've heard that Finch Ave. E is quite bad in traffic, is it correct? If so, would extending Finch LRT to either Fairview or Scarborough would make sense?
And one more thing: I think Dundas LRT (from Islington/Kipling to Hurontario) is being proposed, so consider adding that as well. Why is it missing from your list?
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MisterF
Senior Member
Two subway lines sharing tracks to STC would mean lower frequencies in the central part of the network, and would be unnecessarily complicated. Basically my thinking is that the line from McCowan to Main Street would continue along either Danforth or down to Queen...depending on where more riders are going. I suspect more are going downtown, which is why I'm proposing that it go to Queen.
There should be a couple more stations on the Bloor line past Jane, that was an oversight.
I don't know Finch East very well but I made a Finch West LRT because that's where Transit City is proposing it. Finch East isn't in the Metrolinx RTP either. No doubt it could go east, connecting to the DRL.
As for Mississauga, is there an official site for the Dundas LRT? If there's enough demand to build that line as real rapid transit (no red lights) then I could add it.