Transit Fantasy Maps

[JSF-1]

So I made another map, this time for Ottawa. I think the Ottawa region would be wonderfully served by an Interurban style network using "Tram-Trains"; which is great since the Citadis line of LRV's are set up for this. Obviously this would require either new trackage built or getting CP and CN on board (fat chance of that happening), but this is the fantasy thread so that doesn't matter here. While the map does leave out stations currently in existence on the Confederation line, you can say they are there and nothing really changes.

 

[99Messier]

^^^ Very nice map. I like the station numbering. The "L" seems a bit redundant.

 

[blacksquirrels]

This kind of network would be impossible politically. Expropriating both CN and CP's freight mainlines would be impossible unless the government essentially built entirely new mainlines for both companies (even that is questionable). The service levels on these lines would be similar to the differences of headways on the current TTC lines, it wouldn't matter to show how often trains run because they run often enough that you wouldn't need to base your schedule around the train, you could just show up at a station and wait a few minutes. The premise for both the TTC and GO map is where Toronto is built very much like a european-east asian hybrid city (with a population and density that matches). I chose to increase the density of the Toronto CMA by 140% (arbitrary number, could have been anything from 100% to 150%)

Thanks for your reply. You're right that expropriating all the mainlines would be nearly impossible, but something like building the missing link would open up the midtown corridor for frequent passenger rail service. So some variation of this map could exist with proper planning. Side note - is it not possible to build dedicated tracks next to mainlines if the space allows it?

 

[ARG1]

So I made another map, this time for Ottawa. I think the Ottawa region would be wonderfully served by an Interurban style network using "Tram-Trains"; which is great since the Citadis line of LRV's are set up for this. Obviously this would require either new trackage built or getting CP and CN on board (fat chance of that happening), but this is the fantasy thread so that doesn't matter here. While the map does leave out stations currently in existence on the Confederation line, you can say they are there and nothing really changes.

View attachment 275556

Stop at Carling and Mooney's Bay but not Carleton? What's the decision in choosing where to have stops?

 

[MrGoose]

Thanks for your reply. You're right that expropriating all the mainlines would be nearly impossible, but something like building the missing link would open up the midtown corridor for frequent passenger rail service. So some variation of this map could exist with proper planning. Side note - is it not possible to build dedicated tracks next to mainlines if the space allows it?

Not for the midtown corridor. There are too many buildings along the way. I thought about building a dedicated passenger viaduct, but that has its own problems and would be incredibly expensive to start

 

[blacksquirrels]

Not for the midtown corridor. There are too many buildings along the way. I thought about building a dedicated passenger viaduct, but that has its own problems and would be incredibly expensive to start

What if the missing link was built? Would it become a viable corridor to use then?

 

[Ritachi]

Thanks for your reply. You're right that expropriating all the mainlines would be nearly impossible, but something like building the missing link would open up the midtown corridor for frequent passenger rail service. So some variation of this map could exist with proper planning. Side note - is it not possible to build dedicated tracks next to mainlines if the space allows it?

You could theoretically build a viaduct above the CP mainline but that introduces pricy engineering costs.

- Re-engineering or rebuilding bridges to handle increased load (There are so many bridges along this route it's insane)
- Increased station cost & area required for stations
- Costs as much as a brand new rapid transit line
- Expropriation along the sides of the corridor impossible in places (particularly around Summerhill and the Rosedale neighbourhood - requiring demolishing multi unit residential buildings, and encroaching on wealthy landowners' properties)

It would be possible (albeit at quite a hefty cost) to reroute the CP mainline to be right next to the CN freight mainline (I am unaware if any greenbelt restrictions would apply and if so; whether or not they can be ammended) but you couldn't do both midtown and the northern Toronto corridors.

I am working on a much more realistic system with details such as preliminary station structure location above/below ground. I'll also be doing precise route alignment and such. I won't be able to acess utility data however (too expensive), and elevations are difficult to obtain for existing stations.

 

[MrGoose]

You could theoretically build a viaduct above the CP mainline but that introduces pricy engineering costs.

- Re-engineering or rebuilding bridges to handle increased load (There are so many bridges along this route it's insane)
- Increased station cost & area required for stations
- Costs as much as a brand new rapid transit line
- Expropriation along the sides of the corridor impossible in places (particularly around Summerhill and the Rosedale neighbourhood - requiring demolishing multi unit residential buildings, and encroaching on wealthy landowners' properties)

It would be possible (albeit at quite a hefty cost) to reroute the CP mainline to be right next to the CN freight mainline (I am unaware if any greenbelt restrictions would apply and if so; whether or not they can be ammended) but you couldn't do both midtown and the northern Toronto corridors.

I am working on a much more realistic system with details such as preliminary station structure location above/below ground. I'll also be doing precise route alignment and such. I won't be able to acess utility data however (too expensive), and elevations are difficult to obtain for existing stations.

I think a viaduct is more feasible than you're making it out to be here.

Expropriation is largely avoided if the viaduct runs directly above the existing mainline. The width of the rail corridor is wide enough to allow for pillars on both sides of the track.

Re-engineering bridges is also unnecessary because you'd be building new bridges to the side of existing bridges for the viaduct.

A four track viaduct would be Toronto's equivalent of London's Crosstown system. Past the Leaside spur, where I assume that the need for a 4 track viaduct on top of the mainline ends, double track can be laid along side the CP mainline all the way to Durham region.

If relocating Agincourt GO is possible, then an intersection with the Markham GO line is possible there.

It may be possible to construct an intersection station with the Barrie GO at the Davenport junction. Viaduct would have to be 20+ m high here.

It may be desirable to build an intersection station at the west Diamond junction too.

Milton line stop would be curved (is that allowed) and at grade, Kitchener line station would be below grade and viaduct station would be above grade.

It would still be incredibly difficult and expensive though. Doing the 50 or so bridge/tunnel widenings to get the CP mainline running alongside and totally independently of the CN mainline might be easier.

 

[MrGoose]

12 KM of viaduct from the West Toronto Junction to the Leaside Spur.

At $500M per km thatd be 6Bn dollars, not including the stations.

15B including expropriations and stations and aboveground powerline relocations.

• West Toronto Junction Interchange with Union bound Milton and Kitchener Lines.
• Davenport Interchange with Barrie line
• Dupont Station
• Summerhill
• Thorncliff Park (maybe)
• Leslie Eglinton Crosstown Interchange

This viaduct wouldn't even bring up frequency on the Milton GO line because that would still be restricted by CP. Unless the viaduct was extended all the way to Lisgar and or the entire section to Lisgar were to be double tracked. Which is another problem because CP won't budge.

Total cost of trying to bring all-day 2 way service to the Milton Line and building a midtown go viaduct would exceed $40Bn.


For the 407 bypass and associated infrastructure, most of these are bridge widenings or building tunnels under existing bridges. Finding space for 6 tracks is tricky. (2 CN, 2 CP, 2 passenger)

Heres a list of all the different grade separations/ bridge widenings needed from west to east

Spoiler

1. 5th Line
2. 6th Line
3. Trafalgar
4. Hwy 407 and 9th Line
5. Hwy 401 and Winston Churchill and Meadowvale
6. Meadowvale/ Heritage Rd
7. Mississauga Rd
8. Financial Dr
9. Credit River and OBRY Owen Sound
10. Mavis
11. McLaughlin
12. Hurontario
13. Kennedy Rd and Hwy 410
14. Etobicoke Creek and Tomken Rd
15. Dixie Rd
16. Bramlea Rd. and CN Halton and GO Kitchener
17. Tobram Rd

End of Missing Link, beginning of new CP mainline alongside CN mainline

1. Airport Rd
2. CN Brampton
3. Goreway Rd
4. Finch Ave and Claireville Reservoir and Hwy 427 and Albion Rd.
5. Hwy 27
6. Steeles and Martingrove
7. Humber River and CP MacTier and Islington
8. Pine Valley Dr
9. Weston Rd
10. Hwy 400
11. Jane St
12. CN MacMillan and GO Barrie
13. Dufferin St.
14. New Westminster Dr
15. Bathurst St
16. Hilda Ave
17. Yonge St.
18. Henderson Ave.
19. East Don River and Bayview Ave.
20. GO Richmond Hill/CN Bala
21. John St.
22. Leslie St.
23. Hwy 404
24. Woodbine Ave.
25. Rodick Rd.
26. Warden Ave.
27. Birchmont Rd.
28. GO Markham
29. Kennedy Rd
30. Mccowan Rd.
31. Markham Rd and 14th Ave.
32. Rouge River
33. 9th Line and CP Havelock.

Theres about 50 grade separations total crossing a total of 65 roads, other rail lines and rivers. Thinking about that, and the additional cost of building stations along the old CP North Toronto Subdivision, the two costs might be similar.

 

[MrGoose]

What if the missing link was built? Would it become a viable corridor to use then?

The Mid town corridor would be viable if the missing link. You could get between 2 and 3 tracks along the entire length. Thats good enough that @Ritachi's plan from earlier would become feasible.

I would personally combine the Peel and Durham lines into a new Crosstown Line and introduce an interchange at the West Toronto Junction and with the York West line.

However the missing link and the associated work to take CP off the midtown mainline would be one of the largest infrastructure projects in Canadian history.

 

[Ritachi]

I think a viaduct is more feasible than you're making it out to be here.

Expropriation is largely avoided if the viaduct runs directly above the existing mainline. The width of the rail corridor is wide enough to allow for pillars on both sides of the track.

Re-engineering bridges is also unnecessary because you'd be building new bridges to the side of existing bridges for the viaduct.

A four track viaduct would be Toronto's equivalent of London's Crosstown system. Past the Leaside spur, where I assume that the need for a 4 track viaduct on top of the mainline ends, double track can be laid along side the CP mainline all the way to Durham region.

If relocating Agincourt GO is possible, then an intersection with the Markham GO line is possible there.

It may be possible to construct an intersection station with the Barrie GO at the Davenport junction. Viaduct would have to be 20+ m high here.

It may be desirable to build an intersection station at the west Diamond junction too.

Milton line stop would be curved (is that allowed) and at grade, Kitchener line station would be below grade and viaduct station would be above grade.

It would still be incredibly difficult and expensive though. Doing the 50 or so bridge/tunnel widenings to get the CP mainline running alongside and totally independently of the CN mainline might be easier.

The ROW in most places is definitely enough for pillars to be placed on the sides of the existing track, however platforms for new stations, and station buildings would require extra expropriation, there are also other structural considerations and redundancies that need to be considered. IIRC it's generally not sound practice to build on top of the existing rail bridges without testing/strengthening/repairing them at the very least. Moving new bridges to the sides and above existing bridges requires expropriation to shift the tracks above smoothly to align with the new bridges' positions. Though it seems you've come to relatively the same conclusion I have in regards to a viaduct.
It is much simpler to buy the unused space that were formerly occupied by tracks along the corridor (there is space for 1-2 tracks along the ROW depending on the location. There would likely be a shared track for that option however just because platforms take up quite a bit of space.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The Mid town corridor would be viable if the missing link. You could get between 2 and 3 tracks along the entire length. Thats good enough that @Ritachi's plan from earlier would become feasible.

I would personally combine the Peel and Durham lines into a new Crosstown Line and introduce an interchange at the West Toronto Junction and with the York West line.

However the missing link and the associated work to take CP off the midtown mainline would be one of the largest infrastructure projects in Canadian history.
View attachment 275723

The lime green crosstown (?) Line should terminate at the airport transit hub. There are likely far more potential riders from there than there would be from Brampton

 

[MrGoose]

The ROW in most places is definitely enough for pillars to be placed on the sides of the existing track, however platforms for new stations, and station buildings would require extra expropriation, there are also other structural considerations and redundancies that need to be considered. IIRC it's generally not sound practice to build on top of the existing rail bridges without testing/strengthening/repairing them at the very least. Moving new bridges to the sides and above existing bridges requires expropriation to shift the tracks above smoothly to align with the new bridges' positions. Though it seems you've come to relatively the same conclusion I have in regards to a viaduct.
It is much simpler to buy the unused space that were formerly occupied by tracks along the corridor (there is space for 1-2 tracks along the ROW depending on the location. There would likely be a shared track for that option however just because platforms take up quite a bit of space.

When I was talking about the rail bridges, I was assuming that the bridges the viaduct would run on are separate structures from the bridges of the existing mainline and would run to one side of the existing bridge, not straddle the old one.

But yea, a viaduct would be incredibly expensive. I don't think a below grade solution is viable though. It'd have to cross the East Don Ravine, 2 other Ravines and pass under every road that the existing mainline passes over.

The real problem with trying to get Midtown GO is the sheer cost

1. Add more tracks: new service would be restricted by CP
2. Small Viaduct : Expensive and restricted by CP
3. Small Viaduct and new tracks outside of the Viaduct: Honestly this might be the best solution, though service would not be as high as desired. Also doesn't solve CN restrictions along Kitchener Line
4. Big Viaduct: Overkill
5. Missing Link: Hundreds of Kilometers of new track and 50 grade separations is a steep steep bill. Does free up the midtown line and Kitchener Line and Milton Line

Ultimately I think that we should go with the Missing Link and CP's new mainline but idk if it would be politically feasible to spend that kind of money. The Fed's would have to get involved and spending that much money on Toronto doesn't play well in everywhere else, even though it is needed.

 

[99Messier]

For viaduct, think about $100M /km. If you have to straddle above a singe-track rail-line, it maybe goes up to maybe $120 as long as you can keep the spans less than about 45m and the "straddle" less than 10m. For very large spans in very large valley, or straddling up to 30m, it might get to $200.
Station, which can vary quite significantly in size, would be on top of this. .

 

[afransen]

Total cost of trying to bring all-day 2 way service to the Milton Line and building a midtown go viaduct would exceed $40Bn.

This is kind of ludicrous. We could build an elevated metro line to provide that service (at least as far as Lisgar) for less. Elevated subway style line for maybe $10B.