Transit Fantasy Maps

[scarberiankhatru]

Every single person who buys a plane ticket can also easily afford $22...of course, for, say, a group of four, it'll be much cheaper to just take a taxi - which takes you door to door without having to drag your suitcases around.

 

[spmarshall]

Exactly. I am against Blue 22.

1. If it is still alive, it will result in a private sector company riding off of public investment.
2. With limited stops (only maybe at Bloor), it will not pick up much of the travel market.
3. It will be too pricey. It won't cost much more to take the bus to Buffalo....
4. Airport limo will continue to be more attractive to business travellers with expense accounts.
5. The airport bus serves the hotels for less. Only four larger hotels are really walkable with bags from Union - Royal York, Strathcona, Crowne Plaza, Novotel (and the last two a stretch perhaps).
6. How many taxis currently do downtown-YYZ, and how many will still make the trip? Many of them are hailed down, and would save time over boarding the rail link, at least in people's minds.
7. The 20 minute service by Blue 22 will, I guarantee, take priority over GO and VIA and will make it harder to put in real regional rail on the corridor.
8. Weston people are rightly upset - they will have NO benefit whatsoever from Blue22, only that trench and scores of additional train movements. They would benefit from regional rail, and would not oppose it.

Real regional rail is the answer.

 

[Darkstar416]

Blue22 is the type of service that would work in a city with already extremely high levels of rail travel use to and from the international airport and the core. A type of city where rail travel on this corridor has become so successful that a new "express service" is now demanded. Toronto is not that sort of city and probably won't be for another 50+ years. The only cities that can really support such "express airport rail" service are the top-tier big daddy's like Tokyo, Hong Kong, London and New York. We can however, certainly support local rail options to the airport.

 

[ganjavih]

It's not a matter if whether you can afford $22, I'm sure we all could. The question is why anyone would want to spend $22 on it when the Airport Express is so much more convenient and so much cheaper. It seems like a useless service to me except for Bay St. bankers on all expense paid business trips. I might use it if it's $5-10. For now, I'll continue to use the TTC.

 

[socialwoe]

It benefits a heck of a lot more than the airport...and maybe scattered industrial parks should get the cold shoulder.

Not as a stand alone. It would have to incorporate several modes of transit in its hub including a GTA-wide fleet of local and express routes. MT Busway would have to be built to meet it and we know your stance on that. As for the areas I mentioned none are hardly industrial parks. ACC has one of the highest concentration of tech/IT firm HQs in Ontario, Carlingview is surrounded by several major hotel chains (think: overnight layovers dummy), Dixon has congress and trade centres and hub of emplyment for 000s.

Weston wants a DRL...

Well adios Church, King and John Streets your fate is sealed :evil ! That and a united Weston and we know what happens to houses divided.

I said you're a hypocrite based on your criteria of what consitututes a jog and what doesn't, not because you want a subway line down Mimico way...your lines jog around to hit supposed "000s of trippers and major nodes and hospitals and parks," but if one were to propose a line anywhere else that did the same, you claim it's unnecessitious.

The lines run along the general alignment of the major artery its named for. Chinatown/SLM aside the dips don't occur til the very ends of my lines where the corridor ends. You'll never convince me the Queensway warrants a subway when there's so much more along Lakeshore and the people riding 111, 44, 76, 123 primarily are heading there so why subservice them with a jaunt from the QEW lands? Don Mills may not be unnecessitious but it sure is redundant considering everywhere along the corridor would be within 10 mins of a subway, hence all you'd really be doing is burying a bus feeder line to shuttle commuters to those stops.

Don't forget Mortimer! Cosburn would replace both O'Connor and Mortimer. Why are you so concerned about a few hundred people potentially walking a few extra blocks to get to a line that you don't even think should be built?

Does the word half-concession mean anything to you? Considering the same stretch of area along Yonge has three stops, one of which doesn't even have a connecting surface route, you're lucky I haven't proposed all three: Mortimer, Cosburn and O'connor getting stops.

At $22, blue-22 can be afforded by the thousands of people who take taxis, ride the Airport Express bus, or park their own cars at the airport.

That's unreasonnable! Even if it were a round-trip fare it still wouldn't be fiscally sound to ride it. Why has everyone abandoned/not considered a Hwy 427 subway? What it loses in intermediate ridership it gains from the stance it's a direct roue to the airport via rapid transit. Done on the surface and only a km or 2 away from Kipling Stn. this could be done for under a billion.

The only cities that can really support such "express airport rail" service are the top-tier big daddy's like Tokyo, Hong Kong, London and New York. We can however, certainly support local rail options to the airport.

Weston Sub is definitely better suited to local transit. Considering the poor connectivity in this part of the city and all plus the revitalization around St. Clair and Lawrence it'd more of a success this way. Oh and at a more reasonable fare price too.

It seems like a useless service to me except for Bay St. bankers on all expense paid business trips. I might use it if it's $5-10. For now, I'll continue to use the TTC.

Yeah the GO services from York Mills and Yorkdale are the fastest transit options available although you have to go all the way north to access them.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Not as a stand alone. It would have to incorporate several modes of transit in its hub including a GTA-wide fleet of local and express routes.

The surface network isn't going anywhere any time soon...it sustains every subway line in the city and will sustain any subway expansion.

Well adios Church, King and John Streets your fate is sealed ! That and a united Weston and we know what happens to houses divided.

Of course, they could bury the line here, or build road over/underpasses (even if it means razing 4 houses to get the wiggle room to do so). It might cost a bit more, but the value of a rapid transit line makes it worth it.

Considering the same stretch of area along Yonge has three stops, one of which doesn't even have a connecting surface route, you're lucky I haven't proposed all three: Mortimer, Cosburn and O'connor getting stops.

I apologize if this seems heretical to those who adhere to the Steve Munro Bible, but how many more Bessarions do we need? A Don Mills branch of the DRL wouldn't get built for the benefit of the very small number of people living beyond a 5 minute walk of either the Pape or Cosburn stations, it'll get built for the hundreds of thousands of people that live north and east of there. Seen in isolation as an upgrade replacing a single surface route, Don Mills wouldn't warrant a subway, but neither would Queen. The Queen line would need lots of stops close together to replace several local routes, but the Don Mills subway would need fewer stops if it's to replace multiple routes where people are travelling much longer distances...and this excludes the need to be fast to relieve Yonge. Your plans completely exclude travel times and their effect on ridership.

 

[socialwoe]

The surface network isn't going anywhere any time soon...it sustains every subway line in the city and will sustain any subway expansion.

True but more subways, less buses. At least 30-40 routes could be slashed/reduced/combined.

Of course, they could bury the line here, or build road over/underpasses (even if it means razing 4 houses to get the wiggle room to do so). It might cost a bit more, but the value of a rapid transit line makes it worth it.

It couldn't be bridged, unless only for pedestrians. 59 Maple Leaf would have to be slashed or routed only along Oak, Church St branch gone. An underpass somewhere in the vinicity would work though.

I apologize if this seems heretical to those who adhere to the Steve Munro Bible, but how many more Bessarions do we need?

Great, now for the real question... how many suburban kms apart stations do we need, routing 10+ routes out of a single stop when in fact the line passes under said routes sooner? Not to sound like a broken record here but every concession road/artery with a bus route needs its own subway stop.

west-east:
(west mall/renforth, east mall, martin grove, kipling, islington, royal york, scarlett/prince edward, jane/south kingsway, weston/runnymede, black creek/high park, keele/parkside, caledonia/ronchesvalles, jameson, dufferin, dovercourt/oakwood, allen/shaw, niagara*/faywood, bathurst, spadina/chaplin/senlac, john/avenue, university, yonge, jarvis/mt pleasant/willowdale, parliament/bayview, river, broadview, carlaw/pape/laird/bessarion, jones/donlands/leslie, greenwood, coxwell/don mills, woodbine/wynford*, main/bermondsey/consumers, victoria park/pharmacy, warden, birchmount, kennedy, midland, brimley, danforth/mccowan, bellamy/shorting*/middlefield, markham, scarborough golf club/tapscott, livingston/nielson, galloway/brenyon*, morningside, manse/conlins/littles, beechgrove/morrish, meadowvale, centennial, port union,east).

south-north:
(lakeshore, horner, queens quay, front, king, queensway/queen, dundas, college, harbord/wellesley, bloor, burnhamthrope/annette/dupont/mortimer, rathburn/st clair/oconnor, eringate/davisville/overlea, eglinton, westway/glencairn/barber greene*, dixon/lawrence, belfields/oak/yorkdale/glen echo*/west hill*, rexdale/wilson/york mills/ellesmere, elmhurst/sheppard, finch, albion/drewry/cummer/mcnicoll, steeles).

It's probably too late to expect every warranted corridor will gets its own stop but at least acknowledge it's truly the best option and if $ were no object would be a reality, the hardest part's getting lines built to o.m.p (optimal maximum protocol)!

A Don Mills branch of the DRL wouldn't get built for the benefit of the very small number of people living beyond a 5 minute walk of either the Pape or Cosburn stations, it'll get built for the hundreds of thousands of people that live north and east of there.

Gosh are so dense (pun intended) to spend billions on a new subway line yet the mere mention a needed, warranted stop that amounts to peanuts in contrast makes you negate it to death? It would not be another Bessarion because it actually connects to surface routes, has a college campus nearby, feeder to the civic centre/hospital, the Pape Village at its door (the only selling point for a singular Cosburn stop, apts be damned!) and room for growth. Even 5 mins of walking along narrow, ice-covered sidewalks through a blizzard when it wasn't necessary cause a friggin subway lies underneath but inaccessible would make anyone hunt down the khatru that subjected them to that fate. I'd watch my back dude :lol !

The Queen line would need lots of stops close together to replace several local routes, but the Don Mills subway would need fewer stops if it's to replace multiple routes where people are travelling much longer distances

Like mad skittles dah :rolleyes ! Why the heck you do you think I put more stations on Queen than the same stretch of BD just a few kms north? It's the core! Dovercourt, Shaw and Niagara makes far more sense than just Ossington, Strachan. NYC and London are the cities they are today because everywhere one needs to be has a subway to get them there, not slow surface routes. DM DRL is just a rehash of the North Yonge line, km apart stops with sparse traffic at best til Sheppard northwards.

and this excludes the need to be fast to relieve Yonge. Your plans completely exclude travel times and their effect on ridership.

That might have been the case before but now I 've considered an adjacent rocket express line to the local lines getting the masses to point A-B in a hurry while placating the still valued, recognised 000s that rely on the minor stops. Seems like I just made ridership higher than ever since I've now catered to a wide cross-section of commuters and their specific travel needs. This even aids the suburbs since elimination of inter-416 GOs speeds up their commutes as well and minimises the needs for endless subways to their city centres at Hurontario, Hwy 7 or Liverpool .

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"at least acknowledge it's truly the best option and if $ were no object would be a reality"

It's not the best option. Even if every subdivision had subway "access" you'd make the trips so long that no one would take it.

"a needed, warranted stop"

Maybe it's not needed or warranted. If the Don Mills line doesn't offer a faster trip downtown than the Yonge line for some, it may never get built, and then no one gets anything.

 

[socialwoe]

^ Are you illiterate or something :eek ? I just explained to you how my plan would increase ridership, not implode it.

The Benefits
1. Express TTC subway- gets AM/PM masses to CBD jobs,
urban centres, the airport and post-secondary campuses
in rapid speed (Rouge Hill to Yonge under 20 mins).
2. Local TTC subway- with same platform transfer, people
can access the subway from any point in the city, get to
an express stop and get to the core in a hurry. However if
they live closest to a minor concession e.g. Galloway or
Centennial, they wouldn't be left behind as your idealism
would allot. Maybe you feel all the current underused stops
should be aborted or something?
3. Express GO train- elimination of non-Union inter-416 stops
(except RH) shuttles in suburban commuters in a fraction of
the time incessant stopping would allow.

The Cons
There Are None!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even if every subdivision had subway "access"

Not every subdivision, just those along the general path of a corridor. It's a crying shame you'd build, for instance, a Queen line only to space out the stops to far apart: Keele, Dufferin, Bathurst, Yonge, Broadview, Coxwell and no further either way. That's the real reason we've suffered this long without a direct downtown east-west subway, the cost to build at least the 26 warranted stops (Humber-Neville Park) would be astronomical, no politician wants to face that. Add in the turncoat suburbanites complaining all the time and what we have is a priority embargo. Everyone's bound for the core but wants lines to their yard >: ! It's more sensible to boost development leading upto the borders but not exceeding them, hence the urban zone is well distributed and not ceasepooled into pockets.

Maybe it's not needed or warranted. If the Don Mills line doesn't offer a faster trip downtown than the Yonge line for some, it may never get built, and then no one gets anything.

I just gave you several reasons why it is warranted! You're seriously telling a 10 second interval's going to the Achilles' heel of this whole subway line? Note I was against this line for the longest while because south of Don Mills/Overlea it's iffy at best where to route it into the core and how its being along a corridor will effect surrounding development. Why can't you understand multiplying the accessibility options residents have will only boost overall ridership? Are you that ignorant? All three west-east arteries through East York are benefited my way without cumbersome jaunts.

If we, the public, are the ones to benefit from subway expansion why should we settle for abridged accessibilty that adds on, not subtracts from our daily commutes to the point more people avert back to their cars and the city's forever plagued by gridlock and smog? But heh, what do you care, you're too busy touting two (2) proposed subway stops through sparse Agincourt, crasting any future expansion eastwards, when one's good enough (ditto with Sheppard West) :rolleyes .

 

[scarberiankhatru]

crasting

Your plan is chepooka.

 

[socialwoe]

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crasting
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Your plan is chepooka.

Procrastinating
Your comprehension skills are chepooka, and that better not be a curse word! Oh and try to come up with worthwhile to read replies, I gave you a alot of fodder to nitpick, the least you can do must garner more interest than |I .

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Oh and try to come up with worthwhile to read replies, I gave you a alot of fodder to nitpick"

I'd rather let this little critter sort your graphomaniacal feculence for me:

on second thought,
"You're seriously telling a 10 second interval's going to the Achilles' heel of this whole subway line?"

It'd be more than 10 seconds, but that's not the point. While the stop may not be foregone based on the capital costs or increased travel times alone, what means that it isn't warranted is the precedent it sets for all other mid-concession (or even tripartite divisions of concessions) stops on what in some cases are intended to be speedy relief routes, not modal upgrades (and you didn't even think Don Mills deserved a subway until you flip-flopped for attention). 1000 people a day use Bessarion...imagine how many more people could have been helped if those tens of millions had gone elsewhere. Now inflate the cost of stations and multiply that number by the number of Neo-Bessarions...it's positively ghastly.

 

[socialwoe]

I'd rather let this little critter sort your graphomaniacal feculence for me:

Smart move! I'd sooner trust it's judgement than your's.

while the stop may not be foregone based on the capital costs or increased travel times alone, what means that it isn't warranted is the precedent it sets for all other mid-concession (or even tripartite divisions of concessions) stops on what in some cases are intended to be speedy relief routes, not modal upgrades

Exactly Scarberian, precisely that! That's the precedent we need to adhere to, gone are the days we should settle for just km apart or greater stations. That's why you like DRL and not Queen-Eglinton, too many necessary, warranted intermediate stops that you can't excuse for not building. A tripartite like SGC-Guildwood-Galloway for instance would be necessary because transit connections would be lost to the surroundiung areas if buses left Kingston. However worrying about the lesser yet still warranted stations doesn't affect speed of travel. The local line could run from Rouge Hill to Renforth in under 90 mins, not terribly bad considering it's a 43km/27 miles trek. But even that's covered when my express alternative covers the same trek in under 30 mins.

and you didn't even think Don Mills deserved a subway until you flip-flopped for attention

Scarb, if you're going to do something, you damn striaght do it right, one shot, not having to shut down the line for months to construct additional stations as the demand exceeds the capacity of your superflurous km-apart mentality!

1000 people a day use Bessarion...imagine how many more people could have been helped if those tens of millions had gone elsewhere.

Man you're glib! The peole using Bessarion are obviously the suburban residents surrounding the station, this is a realistic depiction of how stops through low-density suburbs would be. Does that mean they shouldn't be included? Most certainly not! For all your talk of me just running lines to borders for the sake of connect-the-dots, I'm the only one who recognizes the small, but thriving transit communities throughout the periphery that warrant better than buses. You on the other hand curse a neighbourhood midway between your precious nodular DM, Agincourt and STC from which a bus couldn't be routed to.

Now inflate the cost of stations and multiply that number by the number of Neo-Bessarions...it's positively ghastly.

And yet it works for countless megacities across the globe. Again a handful of express stations takes the manically in a hurry crowd to their nodes in earnest, leaving the little guy to get routed to a stop closest to his home, catering to every type of transit rider imaginable.

 

[unimaginative2]

Actually, one can count the number of cities with express subway service on one hand. The vast majority use regional rail for longer trips.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

That's why you like DRL and not Queen-Eglinton

In a fantasy world I'd build both a Queen line and an Eglinton line, and my Queen line would have as many stops as the B/D line.

you damn striaght do it right, one shot, not having to shut down the line for months to construct additional stations

You don't need to shut down lines to add stops. Much of the North York Centre construction was done at night. Hell, they added the Sheppard line without closing the Yonge line or the streets above it, and that interchange must have been a construction nightmare.

But why would the TTC spend $100 M to add a stop that serves 300 acres of parkland or 300 bungalows in a place not designated for growth in the OP when it could take that money and offer them and thousands of other people spectacular bus service instead?

I'm the only one who recognizes the small, but thriving transit communities throughout the periphery that warrant better than buses.

It's precisely the tiny peripheral places that don't deserve better than buses, let alone subways. Buses are good enough for most people in sprawlly areas - they can actually be very fast in suburban areas and transferring between buses is far quicker than transferring between anything else.