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Transit Fantasy Maps

Prometheus, thanks I don't mind that at all. I didn't even think something like that could be done.

Anyways, here is the new version. I will leave the old one up just in case you want to see the changes. Most of them are minor and are based on what people said here but I also added a few stations and streetcar lines and fixed some other stuff.

Click on thumbnail for full-size map (2.69MB):
 
That's really good. There's nothing there I would really disagree with. (Then again, the subway system does look similar to one I'd propose!)

Kudos for reviving a bit of the Toronto Suburban Railway for Milton - MCC. I really like that idea.
 
Around 1994? Maybe there's some experts lurking in Wikipedia that you could consult to find out for sure.

:lol ! You call that anything, did that tunnel even reach Oakwood Ave? At any rate, that version of Eglinton subways wouldn't do well unless it were extended to Yonge.

I find it strange that you're capable of dreaming up mostly absurd subway lines that would take generations to complete but your vision of what GO could become, with or without TTC/GTA integration, is completely static.

If all the funds were available today, construction could begin within a year and take no more than 10 years to complete. Yes GO is a non-factor for me and 000s of others who precieve it for what it really is, a hindrance to Toronto sovereignty.

Under your plan, someone at Albion & Kipling would have to take 24km of subway to get to York U...if I built it, they'd be able to get to York using about 8km of subway - if they went 24km, they'd just reach Agincourt Mall. They'd also be able to get downtown in 3km less distance and one fewer transfer. They'd be able to get to the airport without transferring.

Is the demand for Albion-York U really that high? My way gives them two options to downtown, one requiring only a transfer at Downsview. Using Eglinton may even be faster. Again both Eglinton+Sheppard can and probably would be interlined so that Eglinton trains could go upto Albion Mall as well as Sheppard already aligned to go to the airport could easy well make that trek.

The map posted below yours on page 5 was just as extensive as yours...last year or so, it was laughed at by everyone who saw it

You do realize that neither this link nor the two websites it diverted me to could come up with this map? Why don't you post it directly here, or at least describe it greater deal so I can have some aspect of what you feel's wrong with it. If VIVA routes are any indication of how/where YR would route its subways, Hwy 7 doesn't sound so weird at all.

And the busway is crucial to...??? The people mover can run up to the Georgetown line where it'll connect with some form of rail that'll go straight downtown, and then maybe continue on to Woodbine. It's the Eglinton line south of Eglinton that's highly dubious.

...MT :D . The monorail can't be run along forever, it needs a transit hub to connect to. That's why I included an insert of Pearson on my map detailing how the people mover (above surface), taxi pick-up/drop-off (surface), mezznine, regional bus (level 2), subway (level 3) and lastly commuter train on-site not no silly voyage to Bethridge (level 4) would be interconnected. What's dubious about the Renforth-427 line? The TTC themselves proposed an Etobicoke RT along this route once, even setting aside a platform visible at Kipling today. It'd work because everyone using 48, 49, 50, 111, 112, 191, 192, even MT would use it. Furthermore places like Cloverdale, ECC, CP/Eringate get revitalized.

It may never have even been extended west of Black Creek...

That would've been a mistake.

One option would be to run it west to ~Scarlett, then north to Weston, then west straight along Dixon to the airport.

Even worse.

You'd lose most of the easy ROW available, but the plus side is you'd mess up the busway

What's your beef with the busway? Mine is I don't know where the ridership's going to come from seeing it runs along highway, service road and industrial sprawl equipped with 000s of unused free parking.

It's late I'll bicker another time!
 
At any rate, that version of Eglinton subways wouldn't do well unless it were extended to Yonge.

I agree...if construction had been completed as planned, it would have been nothing more than an Eglinton stubway to nowhere.

Yes GO is a non-factor for me and 000s of others who precieve it for what it really is, a hindrance to Toronto sovereignty.

Gotcha.

Is the demand for Albion-York U really that high? My way gives them two options to downtown, one requiring only a transfer at Downsview. Using Eglinton may even be faster.

Of course there's demand for travel between Rexdale and the York area...they're right next to each other, but your subway would take an epic detour to connect them. It'd be a 19km trip from Albion & Kipling to Downsview! Your lines would not get them downtown, to York/Downsview, or to the airport faster. Maybe you should overlay your plan onto a real, to scale map...it'll be enlightening.

Even worse.

It'd be closer to more people and jobs so, yes, you'd think it was worse. Dixon is the superior path to enter the airport...Eglinton would enter it via one of the world's largest highway interchanges. The busway can come right into the city and run along Eglinton.

Of course, a great option would be to extend the DRL up the Weston line until it hits Dixon, then go straight to the airport. But if a Blue 22 type project succeeds in serving the airport, this DRL alignment loses that benefit.
 
If all the funds were available today, construction could begin within a year and take no more than 10 years to complete. Yes GO is a non-factor for me and 000s of others who precieve it for what it really is, a hindrance to Toronto sovereignty.

Are you serious?
 
PART ONE

Hey, York Region might one day win the Commonwealth Games, so we need a Bayview subway right up to Mulock to handle all the team handball players and modern pentathlon spectators.

Gosh your ignorance is astounding sometimes. Centennial Park is a fantastic venue and it certainly has more free space than York U to host events. Furthermore it's so close to the airport and numerous hotel accomodations.

It's wide everywhere except for a tiny length around Church St. So what? Buy 20 houses and tear em down if need be - 20 houses should not hold the city hostage.

Thank goodness I don't live in Weston then ;) .

But, again, a DRL does not necessarily have to follow the corridor exactly...it can follow roads or just go anywhere diagonally.

That sounds like running directly under Weston and Albion Rds. which despite hitting a few nodes would largely be an underutilized stub. I still don't why this couldn't be a surface LRT route and not a subway, the ppd doesn't warrant it.

And if GO is good enough, why is it ignored in your plans...why do subways run out everywhere in an exorbitantly expensive attempt to replace them?

That's the biggest crock I've heard yet. It was a subway fantasy map, posted in a hurry cause you couldn't understand simple skinetics: clockwise- Midtown CN, Old Finch, Meadowvale, Sheppard. I probably would've included GO too but oh well. I think GO was onto something putting stations near the border regions and running subways out to meet them only increases connectivity for all. Say for example someone from Durham attends UTSC and doesn't want to head all the way downtown to get there. Instead of a slow bus now 000s can get off at Rouge Hill walk across to the subway and be at school in 10 mins. Also too what if this student's class wasn't even during the AM/PM rush? See makes sense. Also what about all the suburbanites forced to suffer through those every 3 mins stops you complained about in another thread at Guildwood, Eglinton, Scarborough, Danforth? Don't you think they'd be gracious to get bullet train speed service over these unnecessitious stops which a subway could handle?

I don't think there's a single building over 2 storeys east of Meadowvale, just scattered houses and lots of parkland.

Looking at the here and now and not the future again :rolleyes . Typical Scarberian! Know of the new malls and condos going up along Port Union between Lawson and the 401? You think those lots will as you said 'remain static'? Condos can easy well go up. I have a hard time putting faith in your points about McCowan, Finch West and the harbourfront when you're so against even considering a subway to Morningside and beyond is vital and will only increase in value as time goes on.

Well, that's a very good alternative...serves Queen, check, relieves the YUS loop, check. Your plan completely ignores YUS overcrowding but this Queen connection would do wonders.

No matter what I intended to link Queen East to BD. You didn't seriously think Birchmount was it, did you? I was just unsure which artery to take it up on. Using VP while being the shortest and linking heavily used Bingham Loop and the large commercial area north of Gerrard, it does ignore 000s of passengers along Kingston Rd. Hence continuing from Birchmount I planned stops at Danforth, Midland and St Clair before following the GO tracks to Eglitnon, hence five-directional subways at Kennedy Stn.

The relief that connecting with VP would provide far, far, far outweighs bringing the subway a bit closer to a few thousand people.

Fine as long as there's a through route along Kingston from Coxwell to Eglinton. Since it's 6-laned, the middle two could be privitized for LRT only. If it boosts traffic on the east end of the line I can't complain.

A Lakeshore-ish alignment is not terrible, but I have issues with a subway that runs so close to the lake for so long, through some areas that won't see intensification.

You realize the reliabilty of several bus routes would improve if they weren't bisected by BD? Through routes from Lakeshore to Steeles (RY, Islington, Kipling) helps somewhat.
Every stop I placed there would see high ridership serving a large condo community, several commercial zones, low-income housing, a college and even a regional transit hub.

Food for thought: the Queen line could be the one that goes to Square One, being on an eerily straight line to downtown, and all...a perfectly straight subway line from MCC to the Beaches would be 30km, hitting Sherway and the condos around Palace Pier.

Your praise of Doady's Hurontario line? Ding-dong! From Long Branch the line can follow Lakeshore straight to Port Credit and upto Bovaird. The Queensway on the other hand doesn't warrant even regular all-day bus service, yeah that definitely deserves a subway. So what if the trek from Long Branch to Sherway adds a few mins, you really think people will mind that much when it means the vast majority hits the Lakeshore nodes?

Half the people along Lakeshore would still be minutes away from the Queen line.

How is "1 km is close enough" not suitable for the Finch nodes, but suitable for the Lakeshore areas?

2km of piggybacking does not at all equate to doady's plan to build an ~18km subway. Nice try.

Today's LRT can be upgraded to tommorows subway in direct contact even another subway system bringing Mississauga into the 21th century. Nice try.
 
A Cosburn stop would mean almost everyone is within 4 blocks of the subway. But 4 blocks isn't good enough for you, so whatever...as long as people have "access" it doesn't matter how long their trips take, right?

Cosburn would still have an entrance to the subway, think Lawrence Stn stretched over 3 blocks to hit Dell Park. Adding in Mortimer only increases accessibilty, alleviates the 62, underground link to Centennial College (yes I feel as many campuses as possible should be linked if you're going to run a line in their backyard) and even hits the bottom of the Pape Village, the only reason you'd stop at Cosburn anyway.

500 metre spacing? Suburban bus routes usually average 300+ metre spacing...you're proposing 4 stops per concession?

If Keele, Jane and Weston are concession roads, then Carl Hall, Arleta and Oakdale are at half concessions. That sounds like two stops per concession to me.

Heck, it doesn't even need to be subway technology...it could be any kind of rail, perhaps coordinated with Peel Region stuff, VIVA, etc. I'm fine with ending Sheppard at Downsview, or maybe York.

I told you nowhere along Sheppard had to be a subway, certainly not a buried one. Stopping short at Downsview however loses connectivity for the northwest and Brampton. Maybe it's the optimist in me but I feel the longer subways are the more passengers will use it.

Why can't this person near Erin Mills slash time off their commute by taking a GO train that's apparently "good enough" for dense areas within the 416?

Wow, the Weston corridor is dense :lol ! Okay smartalic what if it were 11 a.m. and they took the bus from Erin Mills/Britannia?

What we're accustomed to is arriving at Finch every day and sighing "why doesn't the train go north of here?"

2 problems:How to regulate fare honouring?
How to handle traffic south of Lawrence?
For number two I feel it's easiest to run trains non-stop from Steeles to Bloor, with perhaps intermediate stops at Sheppard and Eglinton or Davisville (3rd track).

And it would take a rocket scientist to figure out how to fill two subways every day in Malvern.

And Old Mill, High Park, Christie, Castle Frank, Chester, Donlands, Greenwood, Ellesmere, Midland, McCowan, Summerhill, Rosedale, Museum, Spadina north, Glencairn, Bayview, Bessarion, Leslie, etc. Meanwhile Malvern has a major commercial zone flanked by a zillion low-income housing schemes with a toursit attraction, recreational camping/skiing ground and limitless developable land all around.

Ajax to Whitby is 7km...you mentioned subway-like spacings of less than 2km.

Every other length I mentioned was around 2 kms. The closest proximity between any stops I proposed was between Dupont Stn and Christie and there to Lansdowne-Runnymede-Scarlett which is over the core, hence is reflective of that. Studying the 26, Christie is the most heavily used non-subway stop and the others are well distributed so your complaint doesn't hold water!

why shouldn't we let the province improve the lines as much and as fast as possible before some degree of integration occurs? Meanwhile, every GO line could see all-day service before a single new km of TTC rapid transit is built.

In its own private ROWs perhaps, but competing with other systems for the same rail space unlikely. I'm yet to see any improvement. Where's the lines out to Hamilton/Niagara, Barrie/Orillia, Peterborough, Kitchener/Waterloo, Kingston?

why should this city spend billions of dollars on it when it possibly means delaying routes like Don Mills or Queen? Or if it means delaying bus replacement (something you're suddenly concerned with). The whole Dundas corridor may see massive growth, which would encourage a subway, but MCC may stall and see shrinking populations and a loss of jobs in 20 years, which would mean a subway would be useless...it's just too unpredictable right now.

Hey, you don't have to convince me! I'm the only one who defended a Queen subway through the downtown core first and foremost while seemingly the majority of posters accosted me over rejecting the suburban bound DRL and lines to MCC, VCC and Markville Mall (that was your idea). Subways to Long Branch/Sherway/Renforth would be just as good as a singular MCC line. Even to a hub close to Toronto like Westwood would be better than running it all the way to Hurontario.

When they extended the Spadina line north of Wilson, it stopped at Downsview, inexplicably not continuing on to York, the only thing north of Wilson. Kipling to Square One would be 10 or 11 new kilometres of subway...it's not exactly a sure thing.

Or maybe they just ran out of money :D !

Most of them are minor and are based on what people said here but I also added a few stations and streetcar lines and fixed some other stuff.

One thing Doady, why doesn't the Queen line go further than Ronchesvalles? South Etobicoke is dense and deserves connection. Also since DRL goes up Pape, why couldn't Queen head to VP. Even to Wineva is better than ending at Coxwell.
 
Wow, the Weston corridor is dense :lol !

You've obviously never been there, but try looking at Google Maps. It's lined with a number of apartment buildings and townhouses.

2 problems:How to regulate fare honouring?
How to handle traffic south of Lawrence?

You don't think that the TTC could introduce smart cards in an imaginary world with tens of billions to build subways?
Traffic south of Lawrence is easy: Build a Relief Line along Don Mills.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And it would take a rocket scientist to figure out how to fill two subways every day in
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And Old Mill, High Park, Christie, Castle Frank, Chester, Donlands, Greenwood, Ellesmere, Midland, McCowan, Summerhill, Rosedale, Museum, Spadina north, Glencairn, Bayview, Bessarion, Leslie, etc. [/quote]

What you don't seem to understand is that those stations are all on the way to major destinations. Malvern would be about as busy as one of those, but it's the final destination for two subway lines in your plan.


Meanwhile Malvern has a major commercial zone flanked by a zillion low-income housing schemes with a toursit attraction, recreational camping/skiing ground and limitless developable land all around.

Have you ever even been to Malvern? There are about five mid-rise buildings and some townhouses. It's one of the least dense parts of the city (aside from Fallingbrook, where you also want a subway).

Do you really think people are going to take the subway to go camping? I can really see people hauling skis, boots, and poles onto the train, too.

Once again, limitless developable land. Where, socialwoe, where? In the park? You can't develop a park!
 
you couldn't understand simple skinetics

No, I don't understand simple skinetics. Stop making up words.

Say for example someone from Durham attends UTSC and doesn't want to head all the way downtown to get there.

The GO bus can get them there in 20 minutes...why build a multi-billion dollar subway?

Also what about all the suburbanites forced to suffer through those every 3 mins stops you complained about in another thread at Guildwood, Eglinton, Scarborough, Danforth? Don't you think they'd be gracious to get bullet train speed service over these unnecessitious stops which a subway could handle?

You want to replace GO lines with subways? Well,
1. Subways are slower than GO trains.
2. Then, you'd add stops, slowing service even more.

Know of the new malls and condos going up along Port Union between Lawson and the 401?

No, because there are none. A three store plaza and 12 townhouses do not constitute "malls and condos."

I have a hard time putting faith in your points about McCowan, Finch West and the harbourfront when you're so against even considering a subway to Morningside and beyond is vital and will only increase in value as time goes on.

One day you'll visit these areas, instead of just looking at them on maps, and you'll learn so much.

No matter what I intended to link Queen East to BD. You didn't seriously think Birchmount was it, did you?

You posted an elaborate map, then a detailed construction schedule, then about 15 pages of remarks, all before I had any hint that you were thinking about it...you only mentioned it after I prodded you a dozen times about how useless it was.

Hence continuing from Birchmount I planned stops at Danforth, Midland and St Clair before following the GO tracks to Eglitnon, hence five-directional subways at Kennedy Stn

That's a terrible idea. But, of course, it serves "thousands"...routes that serve "tens of thousands" are dismissed by you as unnecessitious.

Fine as long as there's a through route along Kingston from Coxwell to Eglinton.

One day Kingston will get its streetcar back.

You realize the reliabilty of several bus routes would improve if they weren't bisected by BD?

Huh? Route reliability goes down the toilet when route length increases.

Every stop I placed there would see high ridership serving a large condo community, several commercial zones, low-income housing, a college and even a regional transit hub.

Talk about overselling a route! The big condo cluster would be within walking distance of a Queen alignment. Coincidentally, Sherway would be, too. Everything else (there's not much else) would be like 5 minutes away on a bus/streetcar. A Queen alignment could go into Mississauga, while the Bloor line could go to the airport, letting the Weston line go to Rexdale...it has a certain natural logic, but it's just something to think about.

Your praise of Doady's Hurontario line? Ding-dong! From Long Branch the line can follow Lakeshore straight to Port Credit and upto Bovaird.

OK, that's just stupid...not to mention ridiculously long.

you really think people will mind that much when it means the vast majority hits the Lakeshore nodes?

What nodes?!? Port Credit is the only one.

How is "1 km is close enough" not suitable for the Finch nodes, but suitable for the Lakeshore areas?

That's been answered.

Today's LRT can be upgraded to tommorows subway in direct contact even another subway system bringing Mississauga into the 21th century. Nice try.

Gibberish.

the only reason you'd stop at Cosburn anyway.

Look at a satellite map of Cosburn and rethink that one.

That sounds like two stops per concession to me.

Newsflash: concessions are 2km apart...you suggested 500 metre spacing for GO lines. You haven't gotten the knack of the metric system yet, have you?

Meanwhile Malvern has a major commercial zone flanked by a zillion low-income housing schemes with a toursit attraction, recreational camping/skiing ground and limitless developable land all around.

Wow...you're just so indescribably wrong.

Every other length I mentioned was around 2 kms.

No, you mentioned spacing of 1-2km...no two GO stops in the GTA are less than 2km, and most are much more than that. You suggested regular spacing of less than 2km, which would increase travels times by at least half.

In its own private ROWs perhaps, but competing with other systems for the same rail space unlikely. I'm yet to see any improvement. Where's the lines out to Hamilton/Niagara, Barrie/Orillia, Peterborough, Kitchener/Waterloo, Kingston?

GO lines are their own private space...the TTC can't just start building in GO corridors. What does rail to Kginston have to do with the TTC?

I'm the only one who defended a Queen subway

Yeah, sure.

Or maybe they just ran out of money

You plan would probably cost $100 billion.
 
That's really good. There's nothing there I would really disagree with. (Then again, the subway system does look similar to one I'd propose!)

Kudos for reviving a bit of the Toronto Suburban Railway for Milton - MCC. I really like that idea.

Heh thanks, I actually never heard of that until now. The route does seem very similar.
 
I agree...if construction had been completed as planned, it would have been nothing more than an Eglinton stubway to nowhere.

Yeah, wouldn't want those 'grubby Jamaicans' you dislike pick-pocketing you now :rollin !


Well it is. You talk about Weston holding the city hostage when they've got the best ROWs at their disposal yet it's a circus getting around the city with subway stops only in inadequate junctures while the majority of nodes scramble for accessibilty. See why I've ignored them and attempted to put all those reliable subway stops in their place? Rouge Hill, Guildwood, Eglinton (Bellamy), Etobicoke North (Belfields), Long Branch, Mimico and if I incorporated the DRL Exhibition, Parkdale and Riverdale would all have all-day, run every 90 secs service. Tell me which GO train in the world, in the universe, can provide that!

they're right next to each other, but your subway would take an epic detour to connect them. It'd be a 19km trip from Albion & Kipling to Downsview! Your lines would not get them downtown, to York/Downsview, or to the airport faster.

:lol
They'd be at Pearson in under 10 mins. The megawatt spacing along Hwy 27 means they reach Dixon 3 mins tops. Finch can't support a subway, I know Sheppard can't either but I wouldn't waste billions more to tunnel up there just to prove I'm right when at least Sheppard can be on the surface, there's enough adjacent crown land to contain a ROW. Find me stats that a significant number of York students live in Rexdale and we'll talk. Why would people want to travel further north if their ultimate destination is southbound? Has logic infiltrated the cast-iron mullet yet? Blue Line-Eglinton: 20 mins to Yonge, Blue Line-Hwy 427: 15 mins to Sherway. With new Queen line another 20 mins, as with Yonge-Eglinton. So in all under 45 mins from Albion to downtown my way, maybe shorter than that too.

Maybe you should overlay your plan onto a real, to scale map...it'll be enlightening.

I already have to my PC, but since it's not linked to a website I don't know how to post it here.

It'd be closer to more people and jobs so, yes, you'd think it was worse. Dixon is the superior path to enter the airport...Eglinton would enter it via one of the world's largest highway interchanges. The busway can come right into the city and run along Eglinton.

Um, I used Dixon as the path to the airport, when others would've gone the full length of Toronto Eglinton before veering up Renforth.
Martin Grove, Atwell and Carlingview all have merit as trippers en route to the airport. East of MG what exactly deserves a subway, two chain malls and some retirement homes. Oh wow, brilliant!

Of course, a great option would be to extend the DRL up the Weston line until it hits Dixon, then go straight to the airport. But if a Blue 22 type project succeeds in serving the airport, this DRL alignment loses that benefit.

If you ran a subway up Scarlett, I'm assuming Lawrence/Scarlett would get a stop minimizing the need for an additional line to Weston a mere 300m away, if even.
 
If you ran a subway up Scarlett, I'm assuming Lawrence/Scarlett would get a stop minimizing the need for an additional line to Weston a mere 300m away, if even.

An Eglinton line would only go up Scarlett if there was no DRL up Weston. Why build two multi-billion dollar subway lines to the same place when one would suffice?
 
Eglinton west of Royal York and Weston is part of the "Avenues" plan, Dixon is not. Oppurtunities for redevelopment along Dixon would be limited even if it wasn't so close to the flight path of the airport.

Dixon also does not connect to the Airport Corporate Centre or the Mississauga transitway. Anyways, it is better overall just to build a subway along one corridor instead of trying to serve multiple corridors.

Weston is better place for a subway than Scarlett for similar reasons. Weston is also much denser right now as it is.
 
Anyways, it is better overall just to build a subway along one corridor instead of trying to serve multiple corridors.

Says who? Why must a subway line slavishly follow a road? When you're tunnelling, you can go pretty much anywhere. It's worth exploring every option...they can always be rejected later, but ignoring the possibilities is an act of criminal negligence. I said going up Scarlett was one option, not that it should be done. The line could go west along Eglinton until Weston, then north west to Dixon, then west to the airport. Weston may be "denser," but since it's only a few hundred metres away from Scarlett, that doesn't mean anything. Of course, a real rapid transit line in the Weston corridor, if built first, would make the Eglinton West line completely unnecessary.

Eglinton west of Royal York and Weston is part of the "Avenues" plan, Dixon is not. Oppurtunities for redevelopment along Dixon would be limited even if it wasn't so close to the flight path of the airport.

There's hardly anything along Eglinton that can be Avenueized...the designation doesn't carry much weight here. There's absolutely no reason Dixon can't receive the same designation. Redevelopment is just a bonus, anyway - most Eglinton subway patrons will arrive by bus, and by running along Dixon, you bring the subway closer to them. It also doesn't preclude the precious busway from being run straight across Eglinton inside the 416.

Dixon also does not connect to the Airport Corporate Centre or the Mississauga transitway.

The last thing Toronto needs is to have its transit lines determined by what the suburbs deem important.
 
Like the map doady.

Now, anyone got $20 billion so we can get this thing built? Is Bill Gates on the forum?
 

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