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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

Well at least if that happens there the vehicle wont be blocking traffic.
 
lead82 said:
With good reason. This decision impacts the travel network that northern Toronto gets in the next 10 years.
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Not even 10 years, more like 30 at the least. That's why a subway is desperately needed. Sheppard East totally ignores transit needs in the corridor and network connectivity. I prefer option 4, but I've mentioned a bunch of times that LRT past Agincourt isn't even needed. I don't understand why they'd build a Subway along the corridor but build LRT past Agincourt anyways.
 
Well optimal would be subway from DOwnsview to Agincourt GO. However if subway technology is too expensive as they say, then I'd rate the west extension over the eastern extension due to the network connectivity and operational improvements for the YUS line.
 
I'd actually rate the eastern extension of the Sheppard Subway higher than the western extension to Downsview. The western one looks good on a map, and I like the network connectivity, but the eastern extension would be new rapid transit and serve communities not already served by subway, and I feel like it would gain more new riders. The western extension would just shuffle people around a bit more. I prefer to do both though.

3284979777_0690f01fef_b.jpg


That's my ideal ultimate alignment for the TTC network in eastern Toronto concerning Sheppard and Bloor-Danforth. Of course the stops are subject to change. I made that map a while ago and didn't realign the current Sheppard stops as I did in this map:

3835440366_9b9d157dc1_o.jpg
 
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EDIT: @ lead Really? I'd actually put an Eastern extension over western. Western would already be getting the Finch West LRT, yet Eastern would be getting drastically underserved in terms of connectivity and ridership.

But why does it have to be one or another?! Both of them are very much needed, and we shouldn't undercut that. Perhaps they could build Finch West before Sheppard West though, and then analyze the needs from there.
 
Juan_Lennon416 said:
Does Metrolinx or the TTC & City of Toronto have the final say regarding Sheppard East?
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Theoretically, Metrolinx has the power to force the municipalities and transit operators to build transit according to Metrolinx's plan. It's whether Metrolinx wants to step up and force the City to build Sheppard as a subway instead of poor service, network-breaking LRT.
 
Juan_Lennon416 said:
Does Metrolinx or the TTC & City of Toronto have the final say regarding Sheppard East?
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Legally? Metrolinx (province).

Politically? That is really a different ballgame and the province seems to be taking cues from the local politicians.
 
Second_in_pie said:
It's whether Metrolinx wants to step up and force the City to build Sheppard as a subway instead of poor service, network-breaking LRT.
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As Metrolinx would be footing the bill, it's whether or not they want to pony up the extra $1.2 billion, which would double the cost of the project.
 
Extra $1.2 billion for Sheppard East? If they build it intelligently and conservatively, Don Mills-STC would be no more than $2 billion, probably closer to $1.5 billion. With Sheppard East (I believe) somewhere around $1.1 billion already, an extra $400 million for vastly superior service could very well easily be a no-brainer.
 
Don Mills to Scarborough Centre would be about 8.5 km. You say that would be no more than $2-billion ... that's about $240-million per kilometre. The Yonge extension is budgeted at over $350-million per kilometre. The further advanced Spadina extension is budgeted at $300-million per kilometre, and it's starting to become clear that the very high construction inflation rate since the budgeting was done, is going to be a problem.

This fantasy of trying to justify the use of subway on lightly-used routes, using unrealistically low construction estimates has to stop; it doesn't help anyone.

I tried to pick a very low number when I chose $1.2-billion extra, so that I wouldn't get the "It won't really cost that much" response. But I still get it.

The current project is about $1.1-billion. Using realistic subway costs from Yonge, the cost of Don Mills to Scarborough Centre is $3-billion. That's $1.9-billion more! And that doesn't even build the LRT from Agincourt ... which is at least another 9 km at $60-million per km ... another $0.5-billion.

So that's $2.4-billion more that would be required.

Your suggestion that it could be done for $0.4-billion is patently dishonest.
 
"Realistic Yonge subway costs?" The TTC's recent subway building is nothing close to realistic. Huge stations with massive, totally unneeded bus bays, huge mezzanines and platforms and grand stations in general is definitely not the way to build subway smartly, and hasn't been for 50 years.

Realistic subway costs could be as low as $250/km if you don't go apeshit on design like the TTC has. That means that at least a subway to Agincourt for $1.5 billion is totally realistic. I say if we're building it that far, why not go to STC? It doesn't have to, but I think it'd make sense.

EDIT: And before anyone goes "oh, well you're spending an extra $400 million to provide service to less than half the area that the LRT would," you've been shown wrong again and again. A subway to Agincourt and then busses past there would have a minimal speed difference to Malvern than LRT. I admit, past Malvern, speeds start favoruing LRT, but how much of Sheppard's ridership actually comes form east of Neilson? That's a tiny number compared to the people that take transit west of Agincourt. West of Neilson, things start favoring subway more and more and more.
 
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Second_in_pie said:
"Realistic Yonge subway costs?" The TTC's recent subway building is nothing close to realistic. Huge stations with massive, totally unneeded bus bays, huge mezzanines and platforms and grand stations in general is definitely not the way to build subway smartly, and hasn't been for 50 years.

Realistic subway costs could be as low as $250/km if you don't go apeshit on design like the TTC has. That means that at least a subway to Agincourt for $1.5 billion is totally realistic. I say if we're building it that far, why not go to STC? It doesn't have to, but I think it'd make sense.

EDIT: And before anyone goes "oh, well you're spending an extra $400 million to provide service to less than half the area that the LRT would," you've been shown wrong again and again. A subway to Agincourt and then busses past there would have a minimal speed difference to Malvern than LRT. I admit, past Malvern, speeds start favoruing LRT, but how much of Sheppard's ridership actually comes form east of Neilson? That's a tiny number compared to the people that take transit west of Agincourt. West of Neilson, things start favoring subway more and more and more.
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While I'll give you the bus terminals, there are reasons why the station are built as big as they are, and I not going to get into why because it would be wasted on you, and big stations don't add $100 million per KM to the construction costs.

I'd love to see you build this thing properly and be personally responsible for the cost overruns.
 
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