Transit City Plan

[RichA]

You would't believe the cost of maintaining those "antique" vehicles

Beauty is all in the eye of the beholder. There are plenty of surface and elevated systems out there which I think look very sharp. This includes those done in a pre-modern 19th century era and style.

A fellow I know was contracted to replicate parts which haven't been made in decades for subway cars, etc. He was able to build his own foundry and machine shop, solely on the value of the contract and he makes terrific profits.

 

[ssiguy2]

There's a bit of misdirection in Giambrone's piece as well. LRT costs $60-70 million per km ONLY IF you build it at grade. The Eglinton line is being built below grade and it's construction costs rival that of subway construction.

I love Miller and his friends and their "estimates". One one hand the LRT only cost about $70 million per km but then can't answer why, based on their own cost estimates, it is going to cost $1.2 billion and 4 years to simply transfer a tiny 6 km of SkyTrain over to LRT when you don't have to buy any land, move any sewers or underground infrastructure and the stations are already built.

 

[W. K. Lis]

What at-grade LRT system in the world carries 15000 passengers/hour? I think that this is greatly exaggerating the capacity of LRT.

Also if the average TTC trip is only 6km, this strongly suggests that the TTC is not competitive with driving on longer trips. GTA highways are congested for a reason.

Finally I wish that the LRT supporters would get rid of the claim that LRT serves more people. While LRT might put more people within walking distance of the lines than subway, people from all over the region will be able to take buses to subway stations. Subway lines will attract much more feeder bus traffic than buses because they are faster and higher capacity, and because subways usually include proper bus transfer facilities which LRT does not.

The Green Line in Boston (North America's first subway, opened in 1897) carries a daily ridership of 232,000. However, that is subway, grade-separated ROW, and mixed street running with 66 stations over 36.4 km of track and 4 branches.

Of course, the first Transit City lines would not have light rail vehicles running in mixed traffic.

 

[smallspy]

The GM new looks were in service for nearly 50 years so anything can happen.

As a design, sure.

But as individual vehicles, no way José. The oldest ones were almost 30 years old when they retired. And even then, their longevity is more attributable to how they were designed - much as a car, with individually stamped steel panels that were then rivetted in so that you didn't need a welder to repair them. Most of them barely made it to 20.

I love Miller and his friends and their "estimates". One one hand the LRT only cost about $70 million per km but then can't answer why, based on their own cost estimates, it is going to cost $1.2 billion and 4 years to simply transfer a tiny 6 km of SkyTrain over to LRT when you don't have to buy any land, move any sewers or underground infrastructure and the stations are already built.

You talk of "misdirection" and yet are guilty of it as well. That $1.2bil also included the extension from McCowan to Sheppard, as well as the connection at Sheppard to the future carhouse. I'm pretty sure that the extension would have required the purchase of property, moving of sewers, building stations and even *gasp* a tunnel.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Electrify]

A fellow I know was contracted to replicate parts which haven't been made in decades for subway cars, etc. He was able to build his own foundry and machine shop, solely on the value of the contract and he makes terrific profits.

Unsure what this has to do with my post. I was referring to infrastructure rather than the vehicles. Some examples I thought of include an elevated metro line in Paris (will need to look up which one) and Sydney's downtown monorail. For at-grade systems, look no further to the plans for Viva in the next few years.

If you are talking about the vehicles, most LRVs are very design conscious. While metro trains from the second half of the 20th century had an 'industrial cattle car' look to them, newer trains are moving towards attractive designs with stainless steel frames, LED signage, and sometimes even paint jobs. The new Toronto Rockets are a great example of pride in our train design, something which has been lacking since our first trains from the 50s. Even buses are looking sleeker than ever. Novas have always looked fantastic, and recent models from New Flyer and Orion are looking pretty fine as well.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

...he needs to TELL the public what the cost will be and how the money will be provided. Yes, subways are clearly better than buses and especially street cars. But if it's going to take $300/year from everyone in the province plus the provincial kick-in, he should say so.

I agree.

 

[Dan416]

Reducing a downtown street to one very narrow lane each way is sure to make it close to unusable by cars. If a car illegally stops to drop someone off, a delivery truck is stopped, etc, then the one lane will be impassible. Will never happen. A second east west subway is needed downtown, even the LRT advocates will admit that.

Reducing a suburban road from 3 lanes each way to 2 is acceptable. My big problems with Transit City are that (a) transferring at Sheppard/Don Mills is stupid (b) too many minor stops (c) a LRT line with full signal priority cannot efficiently run headways less than 5 minutes without disrupting cross traffic too much, or disabling the signal priority, resulting in much lower capacity than a subway.

Downtown streets barely move at all during rush hour anyway. Reducing it to one lane will make little difference. People will use alternative routes.

 

[Amy Rose]

Lets see what the pro-subway people will say once they actually visit the Keele and Finch intersection during rush hour

 

[ssiguy2]

^^?

 

[RichA]

Peak hours are bad in a lot of places

Lets see what the pro-subway people will say once they actually visit the Keele and Finch intersection during rush hour

I used to walk over to the University subway stations and take the "U" rather than board at Queen or Dundas subway.

 

[RichA]

All I have to go on are current buses, the spine-crushers with no seat padding!!

The new Toronto Rockets are a great example of pride in our train design, something which has been lacking since our first trains from the 50s. Even buses are looking sleeker than ever. Novas have always looked fantastic, and recent models from New Flyer and Orion are looking pretty fine as well.

I haven't ridden the new Rockets, only the regular buses. Hopefully, they are better. Compared to the streetcars and older buses, IMO, the new ones are very rough riding, the suspensions are a lot harder.

 

[Electrify]

I haven't ridden the new Rockets, only the regular buses. Hopefully, they are better. Compared to the streetcars and older buses, IMO, the new ones are very rough riding, the suspensions are a lot harder.

I'll agree with you there, the TTC needs to rethink their position on comfortable seating. Though the new streetcars and LRVs are supposed to have more comfortable seating, currently almost everything else the TTC runs is subpar at best. This includes the new trains. Hell, even Montreal and New York subways are more comfortable, and they don't have any padding whatsoever!

I think the most comfortable seats on any transit system are the GO Orion Vs, now used on a few YRT routes. Shame I never appreciated just how nice they were when they were used on the Yonge C route.

 

[RichA]

I feel sorry for older riders

I'll agree with you there, the TTC needs to rethink their position on comfortable seating. Though the new streetcars and LRVs are supposed to have more comfortable seating, currently almost everything else the TTC runs is subpar at best. This includes the new trains. Hell, even Montreal and New York subways are more comfortable, and they don't have any padding whatsoever!

I think the most comfortable seats on any transit system are the GO Orion Vs, now used on a few YRT routes. Shame I never appreciated just how nice they were when they were used on the Yonge C route.

I feel it must be very uncomfortable for people with hip or or back issues.

 

[11th]

(My point being distinction is actually arbitrary and meaningless. I'm so sick of this streetcar vs. LRT semantic rolling stock debate. Toronto's streetcars are LRT, but that doesn't mean that Transit City is the same as the streetcar network.)

I think the point being how it's being set up, in-median vs. on-the-side ROW, and how it handles intersections with reasonable amount of traffic.

 

[Electrify]

I think the point being how it's being set up, in-median vs. on-the-side ROW, and how it handles intersections with reasonable amount of traffic.

LRT might as well mean 'Light RAPID Transit,' with the way it is implemented when compared to its streetcar/tram light rail counterparts.