Transit City Plan

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Coruscanti Cognoscente - you can wait all you want. I'd rather ensure priorites are safeguarded - and I'd rather not leave that discussion till someone releases their plan. Hell if not for the rest of us raising the issue, you'd be blissfully assuming the money flows and everything is a-okay.

AoD

 

[Dan416]

Coruscanti Cognoscente - you can wait all you want. I'd rather ensure priorites are safeguarded - and I'd rather not leave that discussion till someone releases their plan. Hell if not for the rest of us raising the issue, you'd be blissfully assuming the money flows and everything is a-okay.

AoD

And you're doing what to ensure Eglinton gets built?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I can't ensure anything, but at least I am raising the possiblity of cancellation as a very real concern. Did you?

AoD

 

[Ansem]

Just curious if you are aware of any demand numbers for traveling from STC to VCC, let alone those who would even consider taking a subway to do so?

There is a good test for demand at least from Yonge to Downsview - the 196 runs an express branch between the two with only a single stop at Bathurst. At peak times it runs every 6 minutes (as opposed to the every 2 minutes for the part of the route from Downsview to York U). Surely many (most?) of those people who would be choosing instead to go south via Spadina instead of the packed Yonge line would be taking advantage of that offering.

I wouldn't put a bus (with not all that many actually getting off at Downsview) every 6 minutes as justifying a subway, but then I'm not keen on gravy train spending where it isn't warranted.

I use the corridor everyday and the 84 is heavily used and full by the time it reaches bathurst. The 196B rarely respect headways mostly due to gridlock, so the 84 gets overcrowded while you get 2 express buses completly empty... The sheppard-Yonge express is poorly managed.

The Sheppard West bus is very busy

 

[MetroMan]

I stand somewhere in the middle of this entire debate. When Transit City was announced, I thought it was a brilliant way of getting most of Toronto's transit needs met all at once, with a budget that would build very little subway that would only inch us towards resolving those problems. At the same time however, I was concerned that downtown transit needs weren't being addressed (we badly need a DRL) and thought that an Eglinton subway should be our priority since it would at least create a second cross town route and release pressure off of Yonge/Spadina/St.George stations. I held out hope that Miller or whoever would succeed him would change their minds about Eglinton and Sheppard being subways while maintaining the rest as LRT.

Ford's plan resolves nothing. Instead, a once in a generation -- heck a once in many generations -- opportunity is being thrown out, all to fund the completion of the Sheppard line that we've eventually found didn't need a subway to begin with. Ford's plan actually exacerbates the problem at Yonge/Spadina/St.George stations!

So if I'm Gary Webster, I'd want to propose a new plan where an underground Eglinton gets fast tracked so that in 4 years it's ready and then begin planning for a Sheppard subway extension starting construction around 2013. Ford could be convinced that he'd have ribbons to cut for a shiny new Eglinton "subway" and shovels in the ground for Sheppard before an election, cancellation charges would be minimal since we'd be reducing our LRT order and not cancelling it entirely and executives Karen Stintz and Nunziata would most likely be on board since this benefits their rapid transit on Eglinton causes.

If an underground Eglinton LRT gets built and a Sheppard subway loop to Bloor/Danforth gets started, I'd be relatively happy given the proposed alternatives with this Mayor.

 

[Ansem]

What are you talking about? The Purple line is the same route as the Red and Brown line. The Pink line was built a long time ago as a branch of another line and most of the stations were decommissioned in the 50s and the only reason it operates now is because it already exists. The Yellow line runs in an abandoned rail corridor that takes trains to the car barn and has level crossings. None of the lines operate in a tunnel.

came from the Chicago website,
you're free to debate their own numbers with them

 

[rbt]

That's the most unfortunate thing. With the state of provincial finances, the plan that gets decided on in the next few months will likely be the only new transit Toronto gets for the next ten to twenty years.

I am still hopeful McGuinty can pull another $4B from his hat. The provincial budget was slightly better shape than expected.

Also hopeful Metrolinx will have a process for prioritization in place. I think Toronto's expansion plans, except SRT replacement, will mostly be determined as
too little bang for buck. Mississauga and Hamilton will see their LRT funding as will a number of additional GO improvements.

 

[gweed123]

For those who are interested, here's the rough map of the plan I was describing earlier. There's no legend or anything on it, but the light purple lines are BRT, just an FYI. The rest is pretty self-explanatory.

PS: Sorry the light purple doesn't show up very well. I forgot to add the shadowing to it that makes it show up better. When I get some more time I'll revise the map.

 

[TO City of Light]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse.

As numerous threads in this forum have pointed out Toronto expenditures on transport infrastructure compare very poorly with comparable projects elsewhere. Now a precedent is being set for a further quantum drop in cost-effectiveness.

Once we get into the full cycle of studies, project approvals, allocation of funds, awarding of contracts with penalty clauses, cancellations, start all over again, it should be possible to burn through hundreds of millions with absolutely nothing to show for it.

Each time a new mayor takes over it can be as nothing was ever agreed before.

In the meantime municipal politicians can argue over the allowable expenses for councillors as if that was the major issue before us.

Give me a reason to be positive about the future of Toronto. The fact that one can have an ethnic meal from a hundred different countries doesn't quite do it for me.

 

[Paleo]

Did you advocate to make SELRT faster with those proposals (longer stop spacing with parallele bus service and route to STC)
Or did you just want it as is because Miller said so?
With that, SELRT was still not the best solution but a compromise acceptable to alot of people, me included.

Just like yourself, Miller and his gang wouldn't hear and people got fed up with the attitude.
SELRT is dead because people wouldn't compromise...TTC wouldn't compromise.

They refused to run a local bus service, which led people to ask for a stop pacing of 400m. For the rest, they didn't care...AT ALL

I was against SELRT because it was not going to STC and was not rapid transit.
Did you advocate for these 2 compromise? So far I haven't seen it.

Of course they asked for it. The locals don't want to be treated like second class citizens so that others could zip through their community at high speed while the actual residents and business customers stand at the curb. Building rail infrastructure (be it LRT but particularly HRT) with huge stop spacings that require parallel service is an enormous waste of capital and operational dollars.

I use the corridor everyday and the 84 is heavily used and full by the time it reaches bathurst. The 196B rarely respect headways mostly due to gridlock, so the 84 gets overcrowded while you get 2 express buses completly empty... The sheppard-Yonge express is poorly managed.

The Sheppard West bus is very busy

The Sheppard West bus is so heavily used that the TTC has been forced to schedule a bus as frequently as once every 5-6 minutes during peak periods.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Then it's settled. Let's replace every bus route with a five minute or greater headway during rush hour with a subway line.

The private sector will surely pay for it if we allow them to build vertical casinos on the top of every station and name the stations things like "KFC DOUBLE DOWNSVIEW".

 

[SimonP]

came from the Chicago website,
you're free to debate their own numbers with them

No one denies those lines exist, or that the numbers aren't accurate for them. What EnviroTO is stating is that none of those Chicago ones should be considered full subway lines. They are spur lines or low volume surface routes.

Looking at another city, in London the least used line, the Waterloo & City line, carries some 24,000 people per day. But this line only has two stations. The next lowest, Hammersmith & City, carries about 140,000 per day.

 

[Electrify]

Who ever designed Kennedy station was surely unqualified, incompetent or on crack.

Second. I commuted out of Scarborough for about a year, the thing I hated the most about the SRT were the transfers at Kennedy and Scarborough Center. Requiring passengers to walk up 3-4 flights of stairs to make the connection makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Though I was doing some thinking, and maybe the transfer isn't why people loath the SRT so much. The entire line screams "second class citizen!" The depressing scenery and stations, the perimeter seating, the funky smell at McCowan from the recycling plant, etc. The transfers do suck, but it isn't exactly a smooth connection between the subway and York University Rocket at Downsview station, so why do I not mind that transfer compared to the SRT (granted I've never done the Downsview connection on a regular basis)? Maybe because one is a well designed bus line while the other is a poorly designed rail line.

Then we should put streetcars everywhere...
That will definately solve transit problems and gridlock in this city...

Not once you brought up the fact that I was willing to compromise for LRT on Sheppard if it was rapid transit.
Miller advertized it as such, then we realized it wasn't...

Did you advocate to make SELRT faster with those proposals (longer stop spacing with parallele bus service and route to STC)
Or did you just want it as is because Miller said so?
With that, SELRT was still not the best solution but a compromise acceptable to alot of people, me included.

Just like yourself, Miller and his gang wouldn't hear and people got fed up with the attitude.
SELRT is dead because people wouldn't compromise...TTC wouldn't compromise.

They refused to run a local bus service, which led people to ask for a stop pacing of 400m. For the rest, they didn't care...AT ALL

I was against SELRT because it was not going to STC and was not rapid transit.
Did you advocate for these 2 compromise? So far I haven't seen it.

Second, again! I was 100% for the SELRT... until I saw the stop spacing. It was a billion dollars to put the bus on rails, nothing more! You could technically already just space out the stops to 400m on the current bus route, and even all bus routes (400m is about a 5 minute walk), and accomplish similar performance results. Build a bus lane and off-board payment on Sheppard and you could have the route completed for less than a third of the cost of the Sheppard "tramway."

But with all the debate about saving Transit City versus killing Transit City, why no fixing Transit City option? While I don't agree with Mr. Ford's stance that all transit should underground to make room for cars, we could easily remove about half the stops to create a very competitive light rapid transit line. Spending a billion dollars to build a rapid transit line is a steal, but spending a billion to pretty up what is already there imo is a waste.

Are you kidding? The AMC theatre and big box stores at VCC is where the bulk of people boarding at STC are likely to be going.

How many people in Scarborough go to York University? And seeing as the outer suburbs is where a lot of the industrial jobs have gone, having a good transit link between Scarborough and Vaughan is not necessarily a bad idea.

 

[Electrify]

Something worth thinking about:

Ultimately subway construction is cheaper in lower density areas than in higher ones (less utilities underground, less to deal with above ground, etc.). And while Scarborough's low density which is comparable to the 905 would suggest low ridership, the lower incomes of the populace result in MUCH higher transit usage than in any of the surrounding municipalities. So maybe more subways into Scarborough is not such an outrageous thought.

 

[Electrify]

Of course they asked for it. The locals don't want to be treated like second class citizens so that others could zip through their community at high speed while the actual residents and business customers stand at the curb. Building rail infrastructure (be it LRT but particularly HRT) with huge stop spacings that require parallel service is an enormous waste of capital and operational dollars.

Maybe the locals would also like to actually go places, rather than be stopping all the time to let people on and off? According to Wikipedia, people walk about 80m per minute. Currently at 400m it is a 5 minute walk between stops (2.5 minutes from midway point). So at 800m, it would be a 10 minute walk between stops (5 minutes from the midway point), 1000m would be a 12.5 minute walk (6.25 from midway point), and 1200m a 15 minute walk (7.5 minutes from midway point). These stop spacings provide a compromise between a comfortable walk and transit performance, and are the most common rapid transit stop spacings around the world. And having a parallel bus service is not a waste of resources, it is providing a different resource for people with different needs, and is done in downtown as well. Saying it is a waste is like saying the Lakeshore GO train in a waste because we have parallel service with the streetcar.