Transit City Plan

[Memph]

I can't imagine any public transit getting me to work efficiently from Cabbagetown to Markham rd and Hwy 7. My drive is about 40 min over 30+ kms. Any public transit option would take two hours.

GO has bus service to Markham GO Station just a couple blocks North of Markham/Hwy 7 that do the trip from Union to Markham in 37min assuming the buses don't get caught in traffic... so add to that about 25 min to get to Union and maybe 10 minutes for transfers and getting to your workplace and you're at about 70 minutes. Adding a GO stop at Danforth Station or a station around Gerrard and electrifying GO could reduce that to under an hour. A station at Gerrard/Carlaw with electrification and all day bidirectional GO train service could reduce the transit commute to as little as 40 minutes or so, although I'm not sure how feasible such a station would be.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

ssiguy:

No offense, we know exactly when the term "streetcar" is being used as a perjorative and when it isn't. And on the issue of disingenousness "to the extreme"- maybe one can tell me what the ridership for the Parisian Metro lines are, vis-a-vis the projected ridership of all the proposed lines, the density of the areas served, as well as the amount of capital funding and state subsidies received? Then and only then can we do an apples to apples comparison of the economic worth of grade separating that stretch of the Eglinton line at this point in time.

AoD

 

[Rainforest]

I am not really sure what to do with Sheppard. Part of me thinks that it should continue as started with subway. The other part says to improve service at minimal cost now (I will ignore BRT for now), and keep the option open for a subway extension in 30 years time. (What would the timeframe be for a major reconstruction of the tracks?)

At quick glance, does this report not say that the best option is a Sheppard East - Don Mills - Finch continuous LRT? This would eliminate the transfer altogether for crosstown travel. It would orphan the Sheppard subway though.

I don't think the Sheppard East - Don Mills - Finch LRT is a great idea. It will be too slow for long crosstown trips (running almost entirely on surface), and it is not clear what to do with the bus service on Finch East east of Don Mills. Run it to Yonge together with LRT? Switch it to the Don Mills station of the Sheppard subway? Or, turn back at Don Mills and make the riders transfer to LRT? The latter option will make the capacity utilization very uneven.

Finch West LRT definitely makes sense, and its extension east of Yonge might be useful as well, but then it should stay on Finch East to support the existing travel patterns.

Regarding Sheppard, I would prefer a short subway extension, combined with BRT east of the subway terminus. That's affordable, preserves the opportunity for another extension in the long term, and helps not only the Sheppard riders but also some riders who take parallel routes.

 

[Palma]

I was under the impression that that there was to be a 2 separate LRT's - Finch LRT and a Sheppard LRT but did not realize the various options show the Sheppard LRT heading west and then heading north via Allen Road and then continuing westward along Finch. What happens to Sheppard west of the Allen? It does not make sense to have a separate bus serving the rest of the route

 

[Palma]

Was it uphill in both directions?

Tell me which stop along Eglinton involves going up and down a hill? If 15-20 min is too far to walk then why the debate on spacing and the need for rapid transit. How else are people going to get to those stations if the spacing is further apart?

 

[sixrings]

I can't imagine any public transit getting me to work efficiently from Cabbagetown to Markham rd and Hwy 7. My drive is about 40 min over 30+ kms. Any public transit option would take two hours.

public transit realistically be used by every person to get to work, nor should try to.

 

[sixrings]

I was under the impression that that there was to be a 2 separate LRT's - Finch LRT and a Sheppard LRT but did not realize the various options show the Sheppard LRT heading west and then heading north via Allen Road and then continuing westward along Finch. What happens to Sheppard west of the Allen? It does not make sense to have a separate bus serving the rest of the route

where have you seen these plans. originally finch was to go east to don mills and ideally the sheppard subway was suppose to connect to downsview. although close there would be parralel routes. i dont see why it wouldnt be any different now with lrt.

in regard to sheppard west. if ttc decides to go the lrt route for sheppard all the way to downsview it would appear likely that they would continue the route all the way to weston at some point. the question is will they be getting to downsview from yonge via subway or lrt. of its subway btw the route will never go west of downsview.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Metroman...
We know what the difference between streetcars/trams and LRT are so you don't have to be quite so insulting.
They are EXACTLY the same vehicles and both are accessible, low-level accessible, and have the same technology.
Both can use POP and ROW if beeded. There are only two main differences between the two............LRT cars can be coupled together which increases their capacity and LRT trains can be run from both ends so turn around stations are not needed.
Comparing the Paris situation and Toronto's is disingenous in the extreme. Paris has a large, high density Metro and commuter system that Toronto can only dream of. They already have a huge backbone system while Tonto's in comparison is mickey mouse.
Paris built their trams for improved local service because they already have a stellar mass/rapid transit system to back it up.
Eglinton being the main road it is requires a fully grade separated system whether that be tunneled, trenched, using rail ROW, elevated or a combination of any of them. Unfortunately, in Toronto huge cost savings of trenched or elevated options are somehow considered heresy.
The issue for Eglinton is NOT whether it be tunneled or at grade but rather should it be totally grade separated or not.

The new streetcars will have the same width as the current streetcars (2.54m), the LRV's will be wider (2.65m). The streetcars will also be unidirectional while the LRV's will be doubled-ended, meaning you will be able to sit in back of the streetcar and look out back, not so with the LRV's.

See this link for the comparisons.

 

[sixrings]

Tell me which stop along Eglinton involves going up and down a hill? If 15-20 min is too far to walk then why the debate on spacing and the need for rapid transit. How else are people going to get to those stations if the spacing is further apart?

i agree wider stop spacing is good. but a 15-20 minute walk between stations is alot. for instance im happy there is a chaplain cresent stop. it means i will be able to get off and walk east towards avenue and enjoy all the nice shops and at the end of my trip jump on the train again. if chaplain wasnt there id either have to get off at bathurst to start my now looong walk or od have to get off at avenue and circle back. this is just one example of why spacing should be somewhat close together.

another example of bad spacing is on the yonge line from eglinton to lawrence there is no stop. its great that it is almodt like a express stop but it makes it very difficult if you live between the stations to get to the station withiut taking the jeeded parralel bus route. also if there was an additional stop near yonge and eglinton it would help spread out the development. in fact im sure some people are hqppy about this but rwally lawrence hasnt scene much if any development. however if there was a additional stop between the two the development wouod have naturally spresd out more.

finqlly between yonge amd sheppard and bayview and sheppard they are missing a stop. willowdale would have made perfect sense as a place to develop. instead what we see is extreme high rise at both y&s and at sheppard and bayview while inbeptween is practically nothing. again an extra stop wouod help spread out the development and it wouod help people shop qnd do things in their own area.

i am not advocqting short spaciing but 700m+ shouod work fine especially in consideration not everyone lives directly at the subway entrance.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Tell me which stop along Eglinton involves going up and down a hill? If 15-20 min is too far to walk then why the debate on spacing and the need for rapid transit. How else are people going to get to those stations if the spacing is further apart?

Bathurst has a hill to the east, and a valley and another hill to the east. Keele has a hill to the east going to Caledonia. Try riding a bicycle from Black Creek over to Kennedy you'll find a lot more hills. Or break a leg, and walk those distances on crutches.

 

[sixrings]

based on this thread http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/13289-Subway-Station-Spacing-Existing-and-Proposed i think we can agree 750 is a good number for spacing. its the aprox average spacing of the bd line. some stqtions wider apart then others. anyways we look at the sheppard line and the spacing is huge which is part of the problem with the line.

SPADINA LINE
Downsview - Wilson = 2.006 km
Wilson - Eglinton West = 1 km between stops
Eglinton West - St Clair W = 2.627 km
St Clair W - Dupont = 1.271 km
Dupont - St George = 600 m between stops

UNIVERSITY- YONGE LINE
St George - Wellesley = ave. 400 m (south of Queen St) - 500 m (north of Queen St) between stops
Wellesley - St Clair = 700 m between stops
St Clair- Eglinton = 1.050 km between stops
Eglinton - Sheppard = 2.070 km between stops
Sheppard - NYC = 800 m
NYC - Finch = 1.3 km

BLOOR LINE
Kipling - Old Mill = 1.275 km between stops
Old Mill - Ossington = 700 m between stops
Ossington - Bay = 600 m between stops
Bay - Yonge = 346 m
Yonge - Broadview = 800 m between stops

DANFORTH LINE
Broadview - Coxwell = 600 m between stops
Coxwell - Main = 900 m between stops
Main - Victoria Park = 1263 km
Victoria Park - Kennedy = 2.4 km between stops

SCARBOROUGH RT
Kennedy - Ellesmere = 2 km between stops
Ellesmere - Midland = 650 m
Midland - Scarborough Centre = 1.2 km
Scarborough Centre - McCowan = 550 m

SHEPPARD LINE
Yonge - Bayview = 2 km
Bayview - Leslie = 900 m between stops
Leslie - Don Mills = 1.660 km

btw im 32 and i could walk 2km from yonge to bayview but how often would i do that?

 

[gweed123]

I can't imagine any public transit getting me to work efficiently from Cabbagetown to Markham rd and Hwy 7. My drive is about 40 min over 30+ kms. Any public transit option would take two hours.

Stouffville line from a Cherry St Station out to Markham Station?

Potentially for certain types of trips, but for other scenarios, it works only if GO dramatically up its' frequencies. A 15 minute wait cuts into flexibility for the riders.

AoD

For suburban areas, a 10 minute frequency would be sufficient. The thing is, when the lines get closer to downtown, they begin to overlap on the same track, so the frequency effectively doubles or even triples, approaching subway-like frequencies.

 

[spider]

We know what the difference between streetcars/trams and LRT are so you don't have to be quite so insulting.
They are EXACTLY the same vehicles and both are accessible, low-level accessible, and have the same technology.
Both can use POP and ROW if beeded. There are only two main differences between the two............LRT cars can be coupled together which increases their capacity and LRT trains can be run from both ends so turn around stations are not needed.

If we replaced the streetcars on St. Clair with bi-directional cars with couplers would that make it an LRT?

 

[gweed123]

If we replaced the streetcars on St. Clair with bi-directional cars with couplers would that make it an LRT?

Only if you removed about half the stops. At some locations now, longer LRTs would be entering the next station as soon as they were leaving the current one!

 

[Northern Magus]

Stouffville line from a Cherry St Station out to Markham Station?

A GO or overground line up the DVP/404 might successfully reach a lot of office and residential developments.