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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
Right.
Part of my job is to provide analysis for government projects. What happens usually is, the politicians don't give a rat a$$ about what your result is. They already have an agenda, and if your report doesn't support their idea, go back and work on your numbers until it does!

Only naive people believe the EA is really about protecting the environment. The EA always supports they they are told to support. Do the EA consults/expert care more about some birds or fish or quality of water than $$$$ projects handed by the government? We taxpayers end up paying the extremely costly research/study/probe/consulting/reviews fees which do no good to anyone whatsoever.
Not shocked at all and no wonder nothing gets done. The EA to me is about "how can we compensate this whiny group here?"

We need to meet up sometime man, i'd like to hear more about this...
 
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Have you ever even visited a post 1960's democracy?

Most of our current infrastructure (highways, subway, raillines, ports, etc.) were built prior to the 1970's and we had no deficit, lower unemployment, better standard of living etc. Have all the costs and delays associated with the EA process really helped us?
 
Most of our current infrastructure (highways, subway, raillines, ports, etc.) were built prior to the 1970's and we had no deficit, lower unemployment, better standard of living etc. Have all the costs and delays associated with the EA process really helped us?

yes, we should hit the shovels to the ground hoping that theres no gas lines or unstable soil
 
Most of our current infrastructure (highways, subway, raillines, ports, etc.) were built prior to the 1970's and we had no deficit, lower unemployment, better standard of living etc. Have all the costs and delays associated with the EA process really helped us?
Lower unemployment? Certainly it was low in the Vietnam-war driven boom of the late 1960s ... however unemployment over the last decade seems no worse than the late 1950s and early-mid 1960s ... particularly with the recessions of 1958 and 1961!

And is our standard of living worse than the early 1960s? Look at the way people spend disposable income these days compared to then. The restaurants, the purchases. Car ownership is far higher. Look at the size of houses people think they should live in now, compared to the early 1960s. I don't think the standard of living has dropped at all since the 1960s ... though certainly expectations of entitlement have risen!
 
Most of our current infrastructure (highways, subway, raillines, ports, etc.) were built prior to the 1970's and we had no deficit, lower unemployment, better standard of living etc. Have all the costs and delays associated with the EA process really helped us?

I think the difference is a few things:

1) Environmental concerns: Not necessarily EAs, but the level of consciousness that environmental issues have today. Let's face it, if the DVP were on the books today, there would be conservation agencies and environmentally conscious members of the general public doing everything they could to stop that project. There wouldn't be a hope in hell that that project could get built today.

2) Lack of (or willfully ignoring) public consultation: In the 1950s especially, expressways were ripped through inner city neighbourhoods like they were nothing. This wasn't so much the case in Toronto (the DVP was built largely in a river valley and the Gardiner on old railway and industrial land), but many American cities faced this.

The Spadina Expressway really marked the beginning of the public actually having enough of a voice to stop a project. This is also part of the reason why no new expressways have been built in Toronto since then.

3) Labour and construction costs: Cheaper to build (even when adjusted for inflation), and the governments had more money to spend on infrastructure, so more got built.


I think that the drawn out EA process is symptomatic of a different problem in the planning and construction world, especially when dealing with government projects: lack of confidence. I don't mean like "we suck" lack of confidence, but lack of confidence in the political powers to see things through to the end.

The process for public infrastructure projects doesn't have nearly as much timeline overlap in it as private projects do. Why? Because with private projects, unless some disastrous scenario comes to light, the people doing the design work know that it's going to be seen through to the end. With public projects, there's this cloud hanging over the entire project, the feeling that some crackpot politician can come in at nearly any time and pull the funding for the project. This leads to a much greater CYA (cover your ass) approach to the project, and much less overlap. You don't want to start on detailed designs until the funding is 100% secure (and even then it's no guarantee you'll finish final designs).

I think that if there was more stability in terms of the future of public infrastructure projects (not being cancelled on a whim), then more overlap in the process could potentially shorten the design timelines and get shovels in the ground faster.
 
Most of our current infrastructure (highways, subway, raillines, ports, etc.) were built prior to the 1970's and we had no deficit, lower unemployment, better standard of living etc. Have all the costs and delays associated with the EA process really helped us?

At that time we also had much much higher tax rates on both business profits (which did not off-shore profits) and high personal income.
 
I think the difference is a few things:

1) Environmental concerns: Not necessarily EAs, but the level of consciousness that environmental issues have today. Let's face it, if the DVP were on the books today, there would be conservation agencies and environmentally conscious members of the general public doing everything they could to stop that project. There wouldn't be a hope in hell that that project could get built today.

2) Lack of (or willfully ignoring) public consultation: In the 1950s especially, expressways were ripped through inner city neighbourhoods like they were nothing. This wasn't so much the case in Toronto (the DVP was built largely in a river valley and the Gardiner on old railway and industrial land), but many American cities faced this.

The Spadina Expressway really marked the beginning of the public actually having enough of a voice to stop a project. This is also part of the reason why no new expressways have been built in Toronto since then.

3) Labour and construction costs: Cheaper to build (even when adjusted for inflation), and the governments had more money to spend on infrastructure, so more got built.


I think that the drawn out EA process is symptomatic of a different problem in the planning and construction world, especially when dealing with government projects: lack of confidence. I don't mean like "we suck" lack of confidence, but lack of confidence in the political powers to see things through to the end.

The process for public infrastructure projects doesn't have nearly as much timeline overlap in it as private projects do. Why? Because with private projects, unless some disastrous scenario comes to light, the people doing the design work know that it's going to be seen through to the end. With public projects, there's this cloud hanging over the entire project, the feeling that some crackpot politician can come in at nearly any time and pull the funding for the project. This leads to a much greater CYA (cover your ass) approach to the project, and much less overlap. You don't want to start on detailed designs until the funding is 100% secure (and even then it's no guarantee you'll finish final designs).

I think that if there was more stability in terms of the future of public infrastructure projects (not being cancelled on a whim), then more overlap in the process could potentially shorten the design timelines and get shovels in the ground faster.

The Gardiner Expressway would have to be wider today, breakdown lanes would have added to the cost.

The Subway would have had to build in elevators and escalators from day one. More costs.
 
What about above ground subways like NYC and Chicago? How much would those cost? It also meets everyones needs.

cta2319b.jpg


The Chicago subway ("L") also crosses roadways at ground level. Something Ford would not accept, even though they are heavy rail.
 
I think the difference is a few things:

2) Lack of (or willfully ignoring) public consultation:

In the past, public consultation occurred during the election. Proposals that were discussed during the campaign were legitimized and built. But times changed - as Kim Cambell rightly observed (and wrongly stated out loud), elections are not a time to discuss issues.
 
The Chicago subway ("L") also crosses roadways at ground level. Something Ford would not accept, even though they are heavy rail.
Although they are treated as normal railway crossings, and it seems the lines only cross several main arterials (from streeview) where they are at-grade. Was Transit City planned to use normal railway crossings or the ones similar to St. Clair and Spadina?
 
Although they are treated as normal railway crossings, and it seems the lines only cross several main arterials (from streeview) where they are at-grade. Was Transit City planned to use normal railway crossings or the ones similar to St. Clair and Spadina?

It would have been like St. Clair, a streetcar line in the middle of the road with no grade separation (except for a section of Eglinton). Hence, low capacity.
 
It would have been like St. Clair, a streetcar line in the middle of the road with no grade separation (except for a section of Eglinton). Hence, low capacity.
They all have grade separation, just parital which is good enough for somewhat frequent rush hour cars to a point, since it bypasses vehicle congestion that isn't streetcar related.
 
cta2319b.jpg


The Chicago subway ("L") also crosses roadways at ground level. Something Ford would not accept, even though they are heavy rail.

Not that Ford did not accept this, he was not presented with it. The options presented to him were LRT in the median of Eglinton from Leslie (Laird) to Kennedy or fully tunnelled. An aligment on the side of the road was not really discussed to any degree. I heared about it for a potential phase II of Eglinton out to the airport, but not much in the East. From Leslie to Vic Park, side of road alignment is possible with maybe a few at-grade crossings (with gates). This still may make a comeback depending the degree of difficulties they are having in detailed design (reported last month) to cross the Don Valley by tunnelling, and if Ford can use the savings elsewhere (i.e. Sheppard Subway - even though I do not think Sheppard is the priority from a transit point of view).
 

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