Transit City Plan

[gweed123]

Mike Harris couldn't have canceled the Sheppard Line because Mel Lastman would have made too much noise about it.

He did make sure it got sufficiently castrated though.

 

[Dan416]

He did make sure it got sufficiently castrated though.

Which is a problem we're still dealing with to this very day.

We're still dealing with finishing Sheppard and Eglinton, more than a decade later. Harris really effed things up for Toronto.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Excuse me, what is RTES?

 

[nfitz]

Excuse me, what is RTES?

It's an acronym for Rapid Transit Expansion Study.

In particular they are referring to the the August 2001 TTC RTES report and the follow-up 2002 presentation that recommended extending the Spadina line 4 stations to Steeles West and extending the Sheppard line 7 stations to Scarborough Centre.

 

[gweed123]

It also formed the basis for what would become the transit portion of the Transportation Master Plan that was present in the City of Toronto Official Plan until 2006, when it was replaced with Transit City.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It's an acronym for Rapid Transit Expansion Study.

In particular they are referring to the the August 2001 TTC RTES report and the follow-up 2002 presentation that recommended extending the Spadina line 4 stations to Steeles West and extending the Sheppard line 7 stations to Scarborough Centre.

It also formed the basis for what would become the transit portion of the Transportation Master Plan that was present in the City of Toronto Official Plan until 2006, when it was replaced with Transit City.

thank you very much.

 

[lafard]

It also formed the basis for what would become the transit portion of the Transportation Master Plan that was present in the City of Toronto Official Plan until 2006, when it was replaced with Transit City.

But that's kind of the thing I was referring to with my earlier post. The RTES wasn't replaced with Transit City and in fact as far as transportation plans go, it has been remarkably well followed through upon. Transit City built upon RTES.

Let's go one by one
1) Spadina subway extension - being built. The fact it's a pork-barrel project is largely irrelevant.

2) Yonge Extension - Has been studied. On the back burner for now because it will trigger a cascade of other projects, which will be very expensive - including the DRL and a fourth major subway yard. Still, this thing has undergone pretty detailed preliminary study. The only way it's getting built is as a political pork-barrel itself, but one that's actually not unlikely to occur. Remember how the TYSSE funding came out of nowhere. This project was recently studied, presumably taking advantage of the momentum from Transit City.

3) The SRT: With RTES it was indeed supposed to be upgraded to Mark II. More importantly, it was to be extended to Malvern. Although with TC the technology upgrade was changed (realistically, there are fleet standardization benefits), the extension remained.

4) Sheppard: Frankly, this corridor should never have had the subway to begin with, the only reason why it was top of the list for RTES is because it had the highest chance of maintaining political momentum, and now we're stuck with a pointless stub of a subway that's too expensive to do much of anything with, besides run it as it does today, as a really expensive express shuttle from Fairview to the Yonge subway. I totally agree that the LRT was probably not the best option but putting a redundant line on Finch East where it should have been is politically difficult - as we saw when the Finch bypass line was one of the first to fall.

5) The RTES studied but did not recommend the Sherway extension. Its exclusion from TC is not of consequence. The ridership numbers even they suggest put an entirely new definition of "white elephant" on the table. THey were about as blunt on the matter as government studies can be. A Mississauga extension is an all-or-nothing proposition, it can't be done incremenntally.

6) Eglinton: As we know, we're getting more than double the original proposal, and even more with the modifications Rob Ford unintentionally made to the line.

What I'm trying to get at is that the RTES might have been jumbled around a bit, but all in all it was hardly "gutted" or "castrated" or whatever you want to call it. In Toronto terms it has been a remarkably successful transit plan. We're 3 for 5, which is remarkably good for Toronto transit planning. It's a few years behind, but still there. TC was meant to supplement that, not replace it (with the exception of Sheppard, but again, that's a hot potato no matter what you do with it).

Transit City, by comparsion, is 1 for 7.

 

[Dan416]

We have yet to get any concrete news on what's happening with the SRT. Ford's plan was to replace it with subway.

To be frank, we still don't have a Ford plan. Just hints of one. And I find that very frustrating.

 

[gweed123]

But that's kind of the thing I was referring to with my earlier post. The RTES wasn't replaced with Transit City and in fact as far as transportation plans go, it has been remarkably well followed through upon. Transit City built upon RTES.

Let's go one by one
1) Spadina subway extension - being built. The fact it's a pork-barrel project is largely irrelevant.

2) Yonge Extension - Has been studied. On the back burner for now because it will trigger a cascade of other projects, which will be very expensive - including the DRL and a fourth major subway yard. Still, this thing has undergone pretty detailed preliminary study. The only way it's getting built is as a political pork-barrel itself, but one that's actually not unlikely to occur. Remember how the TYSSE funding came out of nowhere. This project was recently studied, presumably taking advantage of the momentum from Transit City.

3) The SRT: With RTES it was indeed supposed to be upgraded to Mark II. More importantly, it was to be extended to Malvern. Although with TC the technology upgrade was changed (realistically, there are fleet standardization benefits), the extension remained.

4) Sheppard: Frankly, this corridor should never have had the subway to begin with, the only reason why it was top of the list for RTES is because it had the highest chance of maintaining political momentum, and now we're stuck with a pointless stub of a subway that's too expensive to do much of anything with, besides run it as it does today, as a really expensive express shuttle from Fairview to the Yonge subway. I totally agree that the LRT was probably not the best option but putting a redundant line on Finch East where it should have been is politically difficult - as we saw when the Finch bypass line was one of the first to fall.

5) The RTES studied but did not recommend the Sherway extension. Its exclusion from TC is not of consequence. The ridership numbers even they suggest put an entirely new definition of "white elephant" on the table. THey were about as blunt on the matter as government studies can be. A Mississauga extension is an all-or-nothing proposition, it can't be done incremenntally.

6) Eglinton: As we know, we're getting more than double the original proposal, and even more with the modifications Rob Ford unintentionally made to the line.

What I'm trying to get at is that the RTES might have been jumbled around a bit, but all in all it was hardly "gutted" or "castrated" or whatever you want to call it. In Toronto terms it has been a remarkably successful transit plan. We're 3 for 5, which is remarkably good for Toronto transit planning. It's a few years behind, but still there. TC was meant to supplement that, not replace it (with the exception of Sheppard, but again, that's a hot potato no matter what you do with it).

Transit City, by comparsion, is 1 for 7.

I do see your point. Granted, there are some projects in TC that are 'incremental upgrades' to what was present in the RTES. However, over half of the lines proposed in Transit City didn't even exist in the RTES, and there isn't one single line (with the exception of the Spadina extension, which we both agree was a pork barrel project too far along to stop) that retained its original technology choice or alignment. Not one. I for one don't believe for a second that these changes didn't cause some kind of delay in the construction of these lines, especially the SRT.

Did Transit City improve some of the lines? Yes. The Eglinton Crosstown proposal (especially with the grade-separated eastern portion and the interlining with the SLRT) is much better than a stubway along Eglinton West. While Transit City did keep transit on many of the same corridors, the change in technology choice, which inherently lead to a change in the design (tunnel vs in-median) lead to a delay of years. If we'd stuck with the original course, particularly with the SRT, when that provincial funding did come through, we would have had a shovel ready project back in 2009, that would be nearly half way done today. The switch from RTES to Transit City will end up causing significantly more of a delay in transit expansion that the switch from Transit City to the Metrolinx/Ford plan. At least under the Metrolinx/Ford plan, two lines (the SLRT and the ECLRT) will be moving on with only minor delays in their schedules. That's more that can be said for the change under Miller. The only project that didn't suffer a significant delay under that switch was the TYSSE, which wasn't even related to Transit City.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I understand that sense of frustration as well. But some people on here make it sound like nothing at all came of RTES, that it was a dead plan walking, and that TC was drafted to get the process moving again. The reality is that RTES was progressing. At the time of RTES being scrapped in favour of TC, the Spadina extension was already being planned, and funding was secured from the City and the Province, with only the Feds holding out. Had the City taken the resources (both manpower and financial) that it put behind TC, the SRT refurb could have been underway by now, as well as maybe the Eglinton subway. Not in the "final planning and engineering stages", but with shovels actually in the ground.

Yes, RTES wasn't "shovel-ready" as TC now is, but many of the projects were about to enter EA phases. That's still pretty decent progress. You could argue that the funding that Toronto received for transit expansion in ~2008 was specifically for Transit City, but who's to say if the City had gone to the province with a couple EAs for subway expansion, that they wouldn't have thrown the same amount of money at those too?

The RTES was just as much alive in 2006 as Transit City was in early 2010. The only difference was that Transit City came at a time when the Province was willing to throw money at transit. RTES didn't have that luxury.

Does Mike Harris bare the brunt of the responsibility for f**king over transit in the GTA for over a decade? Absolutely. But there was a working plan that was drafted after he left office, that was intended to lay the blueprint for the next 10-15 years of transit expansion in Toronto. That plan died when Miller & Co wiped the slate clean (with the exception of the SRT refurb) and drafted Transit City. I know people don't want to admit it, because Ford is the bad guy, but he only did exactly what Miller did 4 years earlier. The only difference this time (thankfully) is that there's a Regional Transportation Planning authority around to make sure that at least part of what was started under the previous plan continues forward (ie Eglinton).

Here here!!!

 

[GraphicMatt]

While Transit City did keep transit on many of the same corridors, the change in technology choice, which inherently lead to a change in the design (tunnel vs in-median) lead to a delay of years. If we'd stuck with the original course, particularly with the SRT, when that provincial funding did come through, we would have had a shovel ready project back in 2009, that would be nearly half way done today. The switch from RTES to Transit City will end up causing significantly more of a delay in transit expansion that the switch from Transit City to the Metrolinx/Ford plan. At least under the Metrolinx/Ford plan, two lines (the SLRT and the ECLRT) will be moving on with only minor delays in their schedules. That's more that can be said for the change under Miller. The only project that didn't suffer a significant delay under that switch was the TYSSE, which wasn't even related to Transit City.

This doesn't seem to hold water. Maybe switching the SRT rebuild from SkyTrain to LRT resulted in a delay, but I doubt it -- had contracts been tendered for the SRT rebuild? Was there a construction schedule in place? Was the province ready to release funds that early?

No one has any idea how much of a delay the Ford plan will cause, because there still isn't an official Ford plan. Surely design work for a longer tunnel and more underground stations on Eglinton isn't something you can throw together over a weekend. And the Sheppard line, as much as you didn't like it, was set to open by 2014. Any subway plan won't happen on that corridor until well into the 2020s.

 

[gweed123]

This doesn't seem to hold water. Maybe switching the SRT rebuild from SkyTrain to LRT resulted in a delay, but I doubt it -- had contracts been tendered for the SRT rebuild? Was there a construction schedule in place? Was the province ready to release funds that early?

There wasn't a construction schedule because the funding plan wasn't in place. It doesn't make much sense to say "we're going to build it on this timeline" when you have no money to build it. Everyone is always talking about "shovel-ready projects" when it comes to "quick wins". Had the technology choice not have been changed, forcing a delay of years in order to complete a redesign, the planning and engineering would have been completed by the time the funding was announced, leaving only construction bids and tendering to go before the project was 'shovel-ready'. Instead, the money was left sitting on the counter, waiting for the project to catch up.

No one has any idea how much of a delay the Ford plan will cause, because there still isn't an official Ford plan. Surely design work for a longer tunnel and more underground stations on Eglinton isn't something you can throw together over a weekend.

The official Ford plan will likely only consist of the Sheppard subway. From what I understand, Metrolinx has made it quite clear that the money they set aside for Transit City is going towards building the Eglinton + Scarborough LRTs. If Ford wants Sheppard, he's going to have to get the money himself, or arrange a separate funding agreement overtop of what has already been allocated for Transit City. In my eyes, Toronto will basically have two concurrent yet independent transit plans. One being organized by Metrolinx, and one being organized by the Ford camp.

And no, it won't be thrown together over a weekend, but I'm sure Metrolinx is looking at other options (elevated, staging construction, etc) to make sure that at least the initial tunnelled portion gets built on schedule. If the eastern segment opens a few years afterwards, it's not the end of the world. And to prove it's not the end of the world, the Bloor-Danforth subway was phased in a similar fashion, although admittedly because of funding constraints (Keele to Woodbine, then Woodbine to Warden and Keele to Islington). At least the two segments will be under construction at the same time. Not ideal, but far from a show-stopper. And if the tunnelled portion of Eglinton survives the next election (even without the Ford delay, it still wouldn't have been shovel ready by November), that's almost a guarantee that the funding for the eastern portion will not be pulled out from underneath the project,which would leave us with an LRT stubway. Basically, if the central tunnel survives, the eastern portion will survive as well.

And the Sheppard line, as much as you didn't like it, was set to open by 2014. Any subway plan won't happen on that corridor until well into the 2020s.

I believe they had an EA completed for an extension from Don Mills to Victoria Park, did they not? If not fully completed, nearing completion. I'm not sure of what idea they had for a construction schedule, but it couldn't have been too far off what it ended up being for the SELRT.

 

[Davidackerman]

not sure if this is the right thread but I noticed that bing has transit routes as part of it's search and directions. Beats google

 

[CDL.TO]

not sure if this is the right thread but I noticed that bing has transit routes as part of it's search and directions. Beats google

Definitely wrong thread. There's a Google Transit thread IIRC.

 

[Rainforest]

The official Ford plan will likely only consist of the Sheppard subway. From what I understand, Metrolinx has made it quite clear that the money they set aside for Transit City is going towards building the Eglinton + Scarborough LRTs. If Ford wants Sheppard, he's going to have to get the money himself, or arrange a separate funding agreement overtop of what has already been allocated for Transit City. In my eyes, Toronto will basically have two concurrent yet independent transit plans. One being organized by Metrolinx, and one being organized by the Ford camp.

I doubt that two concurrent plans can proceed. Essentially, neither the Ford's team nor Metrolinx can move forward without the other party's consent.

Ford can't build his Sheppard subway since the city does not have money, and it is very unlikely that he gets all required funding from P3.

Metrolinx has money to build lines and carhouses, but many associated tasks such as property acquisition, utility relocation, landscaping, rezoning etc are normally handled by the city's departments. Metrolinx has no mandate and no expertise to take over all those tasks. Therefore, it needs the city's consent to build any new line (a possible exception is the upgrade/conversion of the already existing SRT line).

If they lock horns and don't get moving fairly quickly, the coming election might spell a disaster for any transit expansion. Even if they do agree on Eglinton right away, the question is how much investment can be made before the election.

And if the tunnelled portion of Eglinton survives the next election (even without the Ford delay, it still wouldn't have been shovel ready by November), that's almost a guarantee that the funding for the eastern portion will not be pulled out from underneath the project,which would leave us with an LRT stubway. Basically, if the central tunnel survives, the eastern portion will survive as well.

Let's hope that you are right.

Both the election time, and several months after the election while the provincial government reviews its spending priorities, are a danger zone. If the project won't reach a state when the sank costs are considered too great to backtrack, it might get nixed.