News   Jul 12, 2024
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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
Could they not interline the new extension to Vaughn with a sheppard west extension from downsview to victoria park?

If you think that idea makes sense, it means you think that they need to have twice the number of subways running north of Downsview as they do south of Downsview or east of Downsview.

Besides, any connection between any Sheppard extension to Downsview will be to southbound so as to access the Wilson yard. It's not like subway connections are like road intersections where it is easy to go left or right.
 
Has anyone heard of something called a premetro in which you are pretty much forced to be in grade separation since they are just LRT lines with many characteristics of HRT such as grade separation, capacity comparing, etc. but you would need multiple cars of LRT to make it impossible to share with the street, and the LRVs would have to be HF to be forced a 100% grade separation order I assume because of the amount of moving parts in the bogey and how it is very pedestien unfriendly it is to very easy it is to get killed, but basically, its a mode of transit that could easily take on low end HRT job even though its LRT

Pretty much just described the Ottawa LRT plan to a tee. It's using LRT rolling stock, but it's pretty much a metro in terms of station size, grade separation, etc.
 
thats a good point. I dont really think that they need MORE subways running north to Vaughn but instead I thought it would make sense for the sheppard connection to terminate at Downsview Parc stop since it is essentially still sheppard... Heres what I was thinking the other day while at downsview station... If this connection were to happen and at Downsview Parc they created a bus loop that the 84 would turn into instead of going to downsview station there would be little need for downsview station itself.. The 108 would be eliminated by people taking the Finch West Subway stop and then the Finch LRT home... The 106 and 196 Would be eliminated by the new Subway. The 101 Would obviously not exsist anymore.. The 107 wouldnt make any sense since people would again get off at Keele and Finch.. Basically what we would have left is the 104 and a couple other routes... But basically we would have a massive bus station without any busses that would NEED it... Couldnt the Station be redeveloped into a public place. Or how about a Grochery Store.? But either way if the subway was interlined and there was a bus route we would have to consider the logic in keeping the station AS IS....

Similarly I think about Eglinton West in the same respect. Once the LRt is in that will eliminate the majority of the bus stops at Eglinton West station.. Is it possible to redevelope that station into something for the occasional Oak Wood bus?
 
If you think that idea makes sense, it means you think that they need to have twice the number of subways running north of Downsview as they do south of Downsview or east of Downsview.

Besides, any connection between any Sheppard extension to Downsview will be to southbound so as to access the Wilson yard. It's not like subway connections are like road intersections where it is easy to go left or right.

The best candidate for interlining would be the Sheppard West extension at Downsview heading south towards downtown. It would significantly decrease pressure on the Yonge line as well as Sheppard-Yonge station, as most of the riders using the Sheppard line in the AM are downtown-bound anyway. If they can stay on that train for a few stops and then the train turns south using YUS, why would you transfer onto the crowded Yonge line? The only scenario is if you're headed to somewhere directly on the Yonge line north of Bloor.

This would also eliminate the need to short-turn cars at Downsview, to only have every 2nd go up to Vaughan. This way, YUS trains would go up to Vaughan, and Sheppard trains would only go to Downsview (basically the same as short-turning, except they change lines). The only way this scenario would become unmanagable is if the combined frequencies of Sheppard and the Spadina extension were too high for the section of YUS south of Downsview to handle. And considering the fact that they're decreasing headways on YUS to 1.5 mins with ATC, you'd need to have both Sheppard and the Spadina extension operating at 3 min headways to have that scenario be a problem (which isn't likely for quite a few years, especially if Sheppard is increased to 6 car trainsets).
 
thats a good point. I dont really think that they need MORE subways running north to Vaughn but instead I thought it would make sense for the sheppard connection to terminate at Downsview Parc stop since it is essentially still sheppard...

There will be a lot more development around the intersection of the Allen and Sheppard before there ever is a Sheppard extension to Downsview. The subway station itself will still be needed.

The bulk of the bus bay infrastructure is directly over top of existing subway tunnels. There is a lot more empty land surrounding the station that could be developed before anyone would be remotely interested in trying to build where the bus bays are.

Having your proposed Sheppard line angling to the northwest to head to Downsview Park station makes no sense as it will make it silly to try and connect to the Wilson yard.

But either way if the subway was interlined and there was a bus route we would have to consider the logic in keeping the station AS IS....

Any interlining north of Downsview is a complete non-starter, as explained above. Further, you've got to mix in four car Sheppard trains with six car YUS trains.

But to repeat, the most important reason why it won't happen is that you will never have demand for twice as many subways running north of Downsview as you will south of Downsview.

Similarly I think about Eglinton West in the same respect. Once the LRt is in that will eliminate the majority of the bus stops at Eglinton West station.. Is it possible to redevelope that station into something for the occasional Oak Wood bus?

Maybe you should visit the Eglinton West station and have a look at where exactly it is located with respect to Eglinton and the exit ramps from the Allen. What possible revenue-positive development could you envisage happening at that site (keeping in mind you are still building directly over top of a functioning subway line)?
 
I could knock Eglitnon West bus station down... Create a Nice open Park where people could congregate. And where occasionally busses could stop..
 
I could knock Eglitnon West bus station down... Create a Nice open Park where people could congregate. And where occasionally busses could stop..

Why would a small park squeezed between exit and entrance ramps to the Allen and Eglinton itself be more appealing than the existing larger park DIRECTLY ACROSS Eglinton?

As I suggested before, you really should visit the station site to visualize your proposals.
 
OK they can close the ON and OFF ramps to Allen road and build ontop of the station a Hockey Rink for a Expansion NHL team... Then the Allen can feed into underground parking for the facility... And less traffic would be on Eglinton..
 
OK they can close the ON and OFF ramps to Allen road and build ontop of the station a Hockey Rink for a Expansion NHL team... Then the Allen can feed into underground parking for the facility... And less traffic would be on Eglinton..

Did you wake and bake this morning?? Seriously, wow...
 
There's nothing wrong with the current Eg West station. Those slivers of land are not desireable for development and not worth much. If anything I would use a bit of the land to add a few more turn lanes to the Allen intersection, but the rest is not worth much. Parking, maybe.

Re: interlining: The wye for active service rather than a direct connection to Wilson so would be monumentally expensive, far too expensive for the low ridership such an interchange would incur. If you look at the local traffic patterns it's pretty evenly split between going north, going south, and continuing west, northern interlining might have some benefits (removing a transfer for those continuing west across the north end of the city) but probably not enough to justify the costs. Notably, most traffic on the existing Sheppard line is heading downtown, and a northern interline begins to serve suburb-to-suburb commutes, which as we know tends to be sparse on transit and not really best served with expensive centralized infrastructure.

The diversion effect is probably near nil. The spadina subway is too far west and the stretch between Eg W and Museum is far slower on the Spadina than between Eg and Wellesley. The run down Spadina from Downsview is about 5 minutes slower than the run down Yonge to the corresponding cross street; add another 5-8 minutes on Sheppard and you're tallking about a lot of extra minutes, too many to be offset by skipping a transfer. It will not ever be a significant traffic pattern. Remember, by 2020 average transfer wait will be less than one minute, and Shep-Yonge is a pretty simple transfer.

You can draw all the grand plans on a map but the fact is that a Sheppard subway is not going to be a heavily used piece of infrastructure and there are better places to spend a quarter billion dollars than massive complex interchanges on Sheppard Avenue.When you look at actual traffic analysis, it becomes clear why a westward sheppard extension was never really on the map. It's simply not a useful line.
 
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well you cant deny closing the on and off ramps would help Eglinton move better. Plus a NHL rink on top of a subway station that has north south bound Sunbway and east west LRt is a transit dream for fans coming via transit... Plus it would create a organized car plan to the stadium from the northern parts of the city...
 
There's nothing wrong with the current Eg West station. Those slivers of land are not desireable for development and not worth much. If anything I would use a bit of the land to add a few more turn lanes to the Allen intersection, but the rest is not worth much. Parking, maybe.

Re: interlining: The wye for active service rather than a direct connection to Wilson so would be monumentally expensive, far too expensive for the low ridership such an interchange would incur. If you look at the local traffic patterns it's pretty evenly split between going north, going south, and continuing west, northern interlining might have some benefits (removing a transfer for those continuing west across the north end of the city) but probably not enough to justify the costs. Notably, most traffic on the existing Sheppard line is heading downtown, and a northern interline begins to serve suburb-to-suburb commutes, which as we know tends to be sparse on transit and not really best served with expensive centralized infrastructure.

The diversion effect is probably near nil. The spadina subway is too far west and the stretch between Eg W and Museum is far slower on the Spadina than between Eg and Wellesley. The run down Spadina from Downsview is about 5 minutes slower than the run down Yonge to the corresponding cross street; add another 5-8 minutes on Sheppard and you're tallking about a lot of extra minutes, too many to be offset by skipping a transfer. It will not ever be a significant traffic pattern. Remember, by 2020 average transfer wait will be less than one minute, and Shep-Yonge is a pretty simple transfer.

You can draw all the grand plans on a map but the fact is that a Sheppard subway is not going to be a heavily used piece of infrastructure and there are better places to spend a quarter billion dollars than massive complex interchanges on Sheppard Avenue.When you look at actual traffic analysis, it becomes clear why a westward sheppard extension was never really on the map. It's simply not a useful line.

Good point. To be honest, I don't know how expensive that type of wye would be at Downsview. I'm just basing my idea off the fact that the TTC has repeatedly expressed the desire to shift more of its ridership off the Yonge line onto the Spadina line (ex: encouraging people to transfer at St. George instead of B-Y). I would have figured this would have been a logical way to accomplish that. And I would think that negating a forced transfer for some people would be incentive enough for people to stay on the same train for an extra few minutes (people are lazy, and if they have a seat, they usually don't want to give it up).
 
OK they can close the ON and OFF ramps to Allen road and build ontop of the station a Hockey Rink for a Expansion NHL team... Then the Allen can feed into underground parking for the facility... And less traffic would be on Eglinton..

Eglinton will benefit, but Lawrence Avenue will choke. All Allen Rd cars that are now split between Eglinton and Lawrence, will spill onto Lawrence alone.
 
If the entrance to the Allen was that far north I would guess the traffic would be equally distributed to Dufferin Bathurst and the Allen... Some people would think to myself miswell just stay on duffern... While others would have the same thought of Bathurst . And finally some people would just continue to use the ALLEN..
 
Yes they could but why would they? What percentage of people on the Sheppard Line want to go north on the Spadina line, and what percentage south? What percentage on the north part of the Spadina line want to continue south and what percentage want to head east? Really interlining only makes sense when there is an obvious travel pattern rather than an all direction split. The added complexity to the end user and scheduling dependencies would make it less desirable than a straight transfer because it is easy to tell someone to take any train that shows up at a platform rather than every other or every third train.

Quite a few YorkU students come from Scarborough, with their only transit options being a multi-transfer TTC ride or an infrequent and expensive GO bus ride. While I cannot find any specific numbers, those GO buses to STC are far from empty.
 

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