Transit City Plan

[EnviroTO]

The cost benefit analysis didn't show this, it showed that you use the existing subway, and built the rest as LRT. Converting to LRT, or continuing to build subway is of lesser benefit.

Of course not converting is even cheaper however the rationale being used by many against SELRT is the existence of the current subway. My point is that you can more cheaply convert it to LRT than extend it to meaningful length. The belief that this subway tunnel asset gets wasted if there is a SELRT doesn't add up. The costs of conversion plus extension are still cheaper than the subway alternative. How can one argue the existing subway is wasted by SELRT when all the other options billions more. I don't understand the logic that money is wasted unless $2.4B more is spent.

 

[Dan416]

Of course not converting is even cheaper however the rationale being used by many against SELRT is the existence of the current subway. My point is that you can more cheaply convert it to LRT than extend it to meaningful length. The belief that this subway tunnel asset gets wasted if there is a SELRT doesn't add up. The costs of conversion plus extension are still cheaper than the subway alternative. How can one argue the existing subway is wasted by SELRT when all the other options billions more. I don't understand the logic that money is wasted unless $2.4B more is spent.

And I don't understand how you can justify spending half a billion dollars to downgrade a line for so little benefit. You're paying MORE to reduce capacity? In what universe does that make sense? The SELRT is the TC project that makes the least amount of sense. I'm glad Ford has made it a priority for killing.

 

[drum118]

And I don't understand how you can justify spending half a billion dollars to downgrade a line for so little benefit. You're paying MORE to reduce capacity? In what universe does that make sense? The SELRT is the TC project that makes the least amount of sense. I'm glad Ford has made it a priority for killing.

By down grading the Sheppard subway to LRT, it has the ability to run LRT west on Sheppard to Weston Rd and to the airport as a single seat ride for the fraction of a subway.

Read the minutes of council and you will see “FORD” voted “FOR” “TRANSIT CITY” and therefore “COUNCIL” has the “FINAL” say if TC lives or dies. Not only did Ford once, he voted a number of times in support of TC.

The ridership and growth “ARE NOT” there for a subway extension to the Mickey Mouse MALL STC.

Your idea of a Subway on Hurontario shows how out of touch you are in Mississauga when an LRT is all it will be needed.

 

[nfitz]

I'm not sure what your point is? Of course I'd take the subway upgrade to STC. And obviously it'll be on a new alignment. That's been discussed to death.

Why would you take something that costs more and gives you less. Yes, it's 3 or 4 minutes faster to get to STC from the south. But slower from the north, and slower to go to/from Malvern.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

By down grading the Sheppard subway to LRT, it has the ability to run LRT west on Sheppard to Weston Rd and to the airport as a single seat ride for the fraction of a subway.

i feel the same way. we could have another crosstown route. it would do the most good and LRT technology would meet the ridership demand. of course, we'd need to have the LRT in the median which could be accomplished after the ford years.

 

[sixrings]

Why would you take something that costs more and gives you less. Yes, it's 3 or 4 minutes faster to get to STC from the south. But slower from the north, and slower to go to/from Malvern.

NFITZ this is why people are anti-transit City... BY the way I think more or less I am pro LRT. What you are ignoring here is that most people are just trying to get to STC without a transfer. Even if they had to transfer from here to malvern to a bus it would still be faster then what they currently have. BUT MOST PEOPLE JUST WANT TO GET TO STC without a transfer..... it really is that simple.

Where do you live? Have you ever taken the SRT transfer on a regular bases? It would seem that you must live far from this transfer or are just one of the minority of people who dont hate transfers. THAT Or you are from MALVERN... I lived in scarborough my whole life and even people in scarborough think Malvern is far. I dont believe the people who live at scarborough town centre area should have to be punished by a unneccessary transfer if there is a option simply to extend the subway to STC. THIS SUBWAY EXTENSION MAKES SENSE... I feel bad for the Malvernites but even Transit City and LRT cant go EVERYWHERE.

If you want to be a TC advocate you might sound alot less Military like if you would sometimes conceed with the prices of both projects are similar. (minus the extension to MALVERN) BTW I appreciate your willingness to cover the city in transit verus wasted our money on a few lines.

 

[Asterix]

If we only built subways and no LRTs in their own ROW, we wouldn't be able to do this:

http://wins.failblog.org/2010/12/08/epic-win-videos-winter-transportation-win/

(Do not attempt at home.)

 

[Dan416]

The ridership and growth “ARE NOT” there for a subway extension to the Mickey Mouse MALL STC.

Your idea of a Subway on Hurontario shows how out of touch you are in Mississauga when an LRT is all it will be needed.

If you don't think the ridership to STC justifies a subway extension, then you're basically saying there's no subways to be built in Toronto at all (never mind the Spadina extension, hem hem)

My idea of a Hurontario subway? Get your reading comprehension cap on drum118. I dismissed a subway as unneeded and I specifically stated all we need is an LRT. I've posted many times about how Mississauga would take any LRVs that Ford doesn't want. Pay attention drum118.

 

[EnviroTO]

You're paying MORE to reduce capacity? In what universe does that make sense? The SELRT is the TC project that makes the least amount of sense.

No, you are paying less to meet the required capacity and increase length.

 

[rbt]

If you don't think the ridership to STC justifies a subway extension, then you're basically saying there's no subways to be built in Toronto at all (never mind the Spadina extension, hem hem)

Spadina extension wouldn't have been a priority if business cases were drawn up for competing projects too. It was sold as moving capacity off Yonge to allow the Yonge extension to occur. A DRL to Don Mills would have done that far better.

Both Yonge (to Steeles at very least) and the DRL (East leg) are both very high volume segments that warrant a capacity of up to 45,000 pphpd.

Given how quickly we we through this decades worth of transit funding, which was significantly higher than the 90's, more thought should have gone into the process. I'm hoping that Metrolinx creates a priority list based strictly on business-cases (including vehicle replacement and large repair projects); and politicians are somewhat forced to follow it from top to bottom when funding.

It really is time to start running transit by the numbers and less by gut-feel and mandate.

 

[gweed123]

Spadina extension wouldn't have been a priority if business cases were drawn up for competing projects too. It was sold as moving capacity off Yonge to allow the Yonge extension to occur. A DRL to Don Mills would have done that far better.

Both Yonge (to Steeles at very least) and the DRL (East leg) are both very high volume segments that warrant a capacity of up to 45,000 pphpd.

Given how quickly we we through this decades worth of transit funding, which was significantly higher than the 90's, more thought should have gone into the process. I'm hoping that Metrolinx creates a priority list based strictly on business-cases (including vehicle replacement and large repair projects); and politicians are somewhat forced to follow it from top to bottom when funding.

It really is time to start running transit by the numbers and less by gut-feel and mandate.

The Spadina subway extension was sold to Toronto as a subway to York U. The only reason it went up into Vaughan is because Vaughan wanted it and was willing to pay it's fair share to get it extended up there.

 

[drum118]

If you don't think the ridership to STC justifies a subway extension, then you're basically saying there's no subways to be built in Toronto at all (never mind the Spadina extension, hem hem)

My idea of a Hurontario subway? Get your reading comprehension cap on drum118. I dismissed a subway as unneeded and I specifically stated all we need is an LRT. I've posted many times about how Mississauga would take any LRVs that Ford doesn't want. Pay attention drum118.

The numbers are there for the SRT considering it hasn't the capacity to carry the real number since it lacks equipment in the first as well breaking down, especially in the winter.

The DRL should be a subway from Don Mills and Sheppard as it will intersect the ridership before it reaches Yonge. The numbers have been there since 1953 and most reports since then to the 70’s have said the same thing.

The Yonge Line should go north as far as Steeles for Yonge since the ridership north on Yonge only justify a BRT now, let along LRT. Once GO is upgraded to all day service, running every 15 minutes and this includes the existing infrastructure, will not need a subway for a least a 100 years due to the density between Steeles and Highway 7. It may get to Clark, but beyond that, no density unless you bulldoze the area 100%.

Bloor only needs to go to Cloverdale as that is the best place for a transit hub, cut down on TTC deadheading, room for TTC to house buses better as well connect to the 905 systems. There are already plans to redevelop that area for high density now.

I love too see a subway to Sq One, but the ridership is not there now nor 50 years, until Dundas is total redeveloped for high density from the blight it is now. That is the only route for one to Hurontario and the to Sq One. I support LRT on Dundas, but again, an BRT can do the job first.

I have a real time trying to justify a subway on Eglinton due to the density along it even for the central core, but the centre core has to be underground due to road restriction. I am on record for taking the tunnel section from Keele to Jane due to the various conditions between these points. Anything west of here will see next to no ridership since there is no density there in the first place, other than feeder bus routes and the airport that can be handled by LRT along the north side and off Eglinton. Going east, again no density other than bus feeders and can be handled by LRT.

Spadina has, is and will be a waste for your life time and it is in the wrong location in the first place.

The 1972 plan would had been one of the best plans for this city as it cover all areas of it then.

 

[nfitz]

What you are ignoring here is that most people are just trying to get to STC without a transfer.

What you are ignoring is that extending the subway 6 km to Scarborough Centre willl cost a lot more than building the 12 km LRT to Sheppard. It's not supported by passenger ridership (though it certainly makes more sense than extending the Sheppard subway east of Victoria Park. And at the same time you take away rapid transit to those near the current Lawrence East station.

If we had lots of money for subway, sure, it might make sense. We don't though. Other subway lines make more sense, such as Yonge, DRL.

If the province has to sit an prioritize where the money from the Toronto LRT lines will go, then they will likely put it where they'll get the most bang for their buck. Other Ontario cities are lining up their LRT projects to get the Transit City money.

If the choice was 10 km of LRT versus 10 km of subway in Toronto, then the choice would be subway. Sure, easy.

But no one with any money is making that choice.

If the choice was 10 km of LRT in Toronto or 10 km of LRT in Waterloo, which would you prefer?

 

[sixrings]

Im just saying that in this case the subway advocates have at least a debate on there hands.. Sheppard doesnt support the ridership neither does the far areas of Eglinton or Finch... I understand some people will lose a stop close to them (your example lawrence east) but there would be countless people that would benefit from a STC extension... BEING 120% LRT only (even if you do have facts) simply makes you and other LRT advocates (myself included) appear to be the exact same as Rob Ford. Although with facts still, a group of people who wont listen to anyone.

 

[sixrings]

I have a real time trying to justify a subway on Eglinton due to the density along it even for the central core, but the centre core has to be underground due to road restriction. I am on record for taking the tunnel section from Keele to Jane due to the various conditions between these points. Anything west of here will see next to no ridership since there is no density there in the first place, other than feeder bus routes and the airport that can be handled by LRT along the north side and off Eglinton. Going east, again no density other than bus feeders and can be handled by LRT.

Personal preference

1. EGlinton Crosstwon between Pearson and STC (sheppard) with Underground portions from Jane to Donmills and trenched area at Richview Corridor
2. Sheppard Crosstown LRT with Sheppard Subway conversion
3. Don Mills LRT from Bloor to Sheppard
4.Jane Lrt from Bloor to YORK
5. FINCH LRT extended to Yonge or CANCELLED
6. Express Subway from Bay Station to UNion with only a Dundas stop in between... (This would be a DRL replacement)