Transit City Plan

[nfitz]

The conservatives are actually nervous that Ford is in power and worried that he'll screw things up for them come next year's election. The liberals have already cited this as a plus with Ford. Can't really argue with that.

To succeed with this, the Liberals will have to start Toronto and TTC of money. Cancel projects, cancel streetcars, force large-scale TTC fare hikes, cancel the agreement to transfer funding.

All they have to do is get Ford to ask for it ...

 

[Calrissian]

If he wants to stay true to his word, then he's willing. It's his newly won huge mandate versus McGuinty's re-election bid, and I see the latter as being in a much tougher spot.

The next year should be fascinating.

the figure that the city website is saying has been spent on TC so far (for design, vehicle orders, etc) is around $700 million... That's alot of freaking money to toss aside.

 

[Ansem]

Eglinton and Sheppard will continue as planned. Metrolinx and Province are carrying through with this one...

The dreams of these becoming subways are just that.. dreams.. otherwise, Ford would be losing tax payer's money in the millions.. and then spending MORE to try and send things back to the drawing board EA stage adding years/decades to the new plans.

So, the same deal still applies.. get these lines that are funded done? or nothing. Thats not to say the other unfunded TC lines aren't dead... most likely they won't see the light of day with no one pushing for them. (Unless metrolin keeps on it)

You're assuming that McGuinty is relaxing in his living room and not bitting his nails over next year election...

You're assuming that by sheer principle,he'll let Metrolinx plan go on even it means pissing off Scarborough and North York. Most of Ontario that are already tired of him...why not add the Liberal Toronto to the list

You're assuming that he will risk loosing "liberal" Toronto who just elected a very conservative guy

You're assuming he won't do what's necessary to hold on to power...

Lastly, you're assuming that McGuinty is not a politician and he's a man of principle...

You assume too much...

He's a politician...Staying in power is what matters and with Ford's victory, taking Toronto's vote for granted is beyond stupid and naive. (Ask Smitherman)
Telling Torontonian that you're the reason that their not getting their subways, that they voted for and always (very huge consensus) wanted to have WILL NOT WIN YOU VOTES...

Despite what you're saying, he knows that, his advisers know it, Ford know it.
Huge consensus in this city (those against it in this thread...sorry, you're part of the minority)
Going against it is going against the majority of Torontonians

At least Miller could made it happened by saying a vote for him is a vote for TC and he won decisively last time
Those days are gone.


***
Mayor Vaillancourt of Laval promised the subway for years. It was never a priority on the governments radar. Once Jean Charest became the Liberal leader in Quebec, the PQ got nervous and made it a priority....They promised it, they went over budget by over 700 millions and they didn't care. They won the election. Later the liberal delivered it because cancelling it would have been suicide. Last election, Laval saved the Liberals from the ADQ (Quebec conservative)

 

[Filip]

the figure that the city website is saying has been spent on TC so far (for design, vehicle orders, etc) is around $700 million... That's alot of freaking money to toss aside.

It's not like there's no precedence for this. Transit projects that were further along (Eglinton subway) have been canned before, or shortened drastically (Sheppard subway).

 

[GenerationW]

Discarding five years of transit progress set in motion is virtually unprecedented. Anywhere. Because it's a phenomenally, monumentally stupid thing to do.

Less than four years actually, and the current plans are a clear (and some argue phenomenally, monumentally stupid) repudiation of plans that immediately preceded what was unveiled early in '07.

 

[GenerationW]

the figure that the city website is saying has been spent on TC so far (for design, vehicle orders, etc) is around $700 million... That's alot of freaking money to toss aside.

It is if one takes that figure at face value. I don't.

 

[Calrissian]

It's not like there's no precedence for this. Transit projects that were further along (Eglinton subway) have been canned before, or shortened drastically (Sheppard subway).

No, the eglinton subway was not further along, they were doing some preliminary digging and shoring, but the cost was not close 700 million. and shortening the sheppard subway was because funding were cut to both projects, not cancelled for another incarnation of these projects.

There is a difference here, Ford is suggesting redoing work already designed and underway, as another mode, thus losing the spent associated money, and then starting from scratch. This is all moot since Ford isn't really that interested in any of this... and most likely won't pursue this part of his plan.

 

[jwill]

A year until the provincial election. Just enough time for Rob Ford to cancel TC in favour of a coupe subway extensions, only for cost estimates to rise and rise without any actual construction starting, and the liberals to paint the conservatives as wasteful spenders who get nothing done.

 

[Calrissian]

You're assuming that McGuinty is relaxing in his living room and not bitting his nails over next year election...

You're assuming that by sheer principle,he'll let Metrolinx plan go on even it means pissing off Scarborough and North York. Most of Ontario that are already tired of him...why not add the Liberal Toronto to the list

You're assuming that he will risk loosing "liberal" Toronto who just elected a very conservative guy

You're assuming he won't do what's necessary to hold on to power...

Lastly, you're assuming that McGuinty is not a politician and he's a man of principle...

You assume too much...

He's a politician...Staying in power is what matters and with Ford's victory, taking Toronto's vote for granted is beyond stupid and naive. (Ask Smitherman)
Telling Torontonian that you're the reason that their not getting their subways, that they voted for and always (very huge consensus) wanted to have WILL NOT WIN YOU VOTES...

Despite what you're saying, he knows that, his advisers know it, Ford know it.
Huge consensus in this city (those against it in this thread...sorry, you're part of the minority)
Going against it is going against the majority of Torontonians

At least Miller could made it happened by saying a vote for him is a vote for TC and he won decisively last time
Those days are gone.


***
Mayor Vaillancourt of Laval promised the subway for years. It was never a priority on the governments radar. Once Jean Charest became the Liberal leader in Quebec, the PQ got nervous and made it a priority....They promised it, they went over budget by over 700 millions and they didn't care. They won the election. Later the liberal delivered it because cancelling it would have been suicide. Last election, Laval saved the Liberals from the ADQ (Quebec conservative)

Metrolinx and Province have claimed they already have a plan and are sticking with it. Move on.

 

[Filip]

No, the eglinton subway was not further along, they were doing some preliminary digging and shoring, but the cost was not close 700 million. and shortening the sheppard subway was because funding were cut to both projects, not cancelled for another incarnation of these projects.

There is a difference here, Ford is suggesting redoing work already designed and underway, as another mode, thus losing the spent associated money, and then starting from scratch. This is all moot since Ford isn't really that interested in any of this... and most likely won't pursue this part of his plan.

Ford is not stupid (to the detriment of the majority of this forum) he knows that transit expansion is the biggest issue voters see in Toronto. He will push for this subway plan because Torontonians believe in subways, nothing else. This has been proven over and over again. Read any of the TC articles online, they all have criticisms from the community. Even if you end up building Ford's plan (Sheppard and Bloor to STC) just that alone will be seen as the biggest growth in Toronto transit since the opening of the Bloor line. Torontonians don't see coverage and LRT - they see subway. The more stations, the better.

 

[Calrissian]

A year until the provincial election. Just enough time for Rob Ford to cancel TC in favour of a coupe subway extensions, only for cost estimates to rise and rise without any actual construction starting, and the liberals to paint the conservatives as wasteful spenders who get nothing done.

He can't cancel it. Its a Metrolinx/Province' project. They would have to cancel it.

 

[Ansem]

the figure that the city website is saying has been spent on TC so far (for design, vehicle orders, etc) is around $700 million... That's alot of freaking money to toss aside.

The city of Ottawa and its citizen would disagree with you.
In their case, it was more than worth it.

Sorry but a 23km/h streetcar on Sheppard East is beyond retarded.

-STC will be the major transit hub for the whole Eastern GTA. Sheppard,B-D and GO should go there
-This will be beneficial to US. STC will grow exponatially
-Linking it to Downtown and NYCC by radpid Transit will be beneficial to US. No just them (suburban but all of US)
-All those new taxes will increase City Hall' revenus

You can't sabotage such potential with a streecar bypassing STC and going to the freakin zoo!!!!!!!
95% of urbanist (and I'm being generous) would be laughing at us for doing this...

 

[Calrissian]

Ford is not stupid (to the detriment of the majority of this forum) he knows that transit expansion is the biggest issue voters see in Toronto. He will push for this subway plan because Torontonians believe in subways, nothing else. This has been proven over and over again. Read any of the TC articles online, they all have criticisms from the community. Even if you end up building Ford's plan (Sheppard and Bloor to STC) just that alone will be seen as the biggest growth in Toronto transit since the opening of the Bloor line. Torontonians don't see coverage and LRT - they see subway. The more stations, the better.

Again, thats not going to happen. The plan is in place, its with the Province and not the city. There's too much working against it...

 

[Ansem]

Since it's the province and McGuinty's administration, wanna bet he'll do whatever he can to hold on to his Toronto seats?
He won't risk those seats for a plan that not even they created but that Miller/Giambrone came up with.

The way I see it, if Giambrone/Miller came up with subways, they would have finance it.

They won't risk their necks to save Miller's legacy. They won't care.

 

[Calrissian]

The city of Ottawa and its citizen would disagree with you.
In their case, it was more than worth it.

Sorry but a 23km/h streetcar on Sheppard East is beyond retarded.

-STC will be the major transit hub for the whole Eastern GTA. Sheppard,B-D and GO should go there
-This will be beneficial to US. STC will grow exponatially
-Linking it to Downtown and NYCC by radpid Transit will be beneficial to US. No just them (suburban but all of US)
-All those new taxes will increase City Hall' revenus

You can't sabotage such potential with a streecar bypassing STC and going to the freakin zoo!!!!!!!
95% of urbanist (and I'm being generous) would be laughing at us for doing this...

Ya, Sorry Ansem, but your posts are always subway or nothing and usually pretty ridiculous at that... I wish Toronto could do subways everywhere too, but realistically, I'd like to see something tangible in my life time, and the eglinton TC line would be it...

at this point, changing those plans to convert to subway would push things way out and just not happen in most of the these forumers lifetimes.