Transit City Plan

[nyer]

can somebody please explain why in the world an LRT/subway extension of Sheppard west of Yonge to Downsview is not planned????

I mean, surely they realize they have a subway along Sheppard E right??

 

[unimaginative2]

You can't very well have a streetcar line just between Sheppard and Downsview stations, and subway extensions in the City of Toronto are verboten. I think people going crosstown will be expected to use the Eglinton or Finch West streetcars.

 

[nfitz]

Or the very fast, very frequent express bus that runs between Sheppard and Downsview stations.

 

[Dan416]

You can't very well have a streetcar line just between Sheppard and Downsview stations, and subway extensions in the City of Toronto are verboten. I think people going crosstown will be expected to use the Eglinton or Finch West streetcars.

Ugh the possibility of using a regular STREETCAR route to travel across the city makes me shudder. I think people will stick with Bloor-Danforth unless Eglinton Crosstown is as fast as the subway.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Again, the mistake about Transit City. They are not streetcars, but a light rail subway. They will not share the road with automobiles, but separated either in a subway or private right-of-way on the surface.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Again, the mistake about Transit City. They are not streetcars, but a light rail subway. They will not share the road with automobiles, but separated either in a subway or private right-of-way on the surface.

Thank you for saying that. I'm sick of all the Transit City naysayers automatically presuming, far before any EA or design has been complete, that this will be no different than a streetcar on Queen Street or a ROW like Spadina. Wait until you see what they actually have in mind before you judge and criticize.

On that note, the first Sheppard East LRT EA meeting is being held in mid-April.

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/index.htm

 

[Undying42]

Or the very fast, very frequent express bus that runs between Sheppard and Downsview stations.

Yeah that bus runs very fast (15 mins). I think what commuters hate most about not having through service both east and west of Yonge on Sheppard is the long circuitous interchange one has to make. Starting at Yonge Stn on the Sheppard Line, one has to walk it over to the Beecroft exit, up and down stairwells, across the other side of the platform down a corridor past Cinnabon, be careful not to accidentally exit the fare-paid area when navigating to the bus terminal and of course up more flights of stairs. Then it ususally takes at least 10 mins to catch a connecting bus. I heard from good authority that there was a plan to link the Sheppard East and Finch West lines via NYCC. However since everyone is opposed to converting the 'stubway' to LRT, oh well.

Ugh the possibility of using a regular STREETCAR route to travel across the city makes me shudder. I think people will stick with Bloor-Danforth unless Eglinton Crosstown is as fast as the subway.

If their destination is south of St Clair (Rathburn, O'Connor), then yes they should probably stick to the BD line. Between St Clair and the Dixon-401 threshold, Eglinton-Crosstown would be very effective. Likewise north of the 401, Finch West/Sheppard East will be most beneficial to those residents residing there. When tackling a city as large as Toronto, one quickly comes to realize one or even two east-west lines can never satisfy the vast majority of the topography. In my opinion, more east-west lines are more valuble than constructing or extending north-south lines which are too limited in the areas they service with coverage.

 

[Dan416]

Again, the mistake about Transit City. They are not streetcars, but a light rail subway. They will not share the road with automobiles, but separated either in a subway or private right-of-way on the surface.

We shall see. I think you're being too optimistic about the TTC pulling something like that off, especially in light of the Spadina LRT and the Queen streetcar mess.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I'm sick of Transit City fans assuming that everything will work perfectly just because some guy on the internet told you LRT is the mode of the future. TTC streetcar operations are currently a disgrace and the leap of faith required to assume functional Euro-style LRT will be the result of Transit City is, frankly, astronomical.

But maybe you're all privy to something the rest of us aren't. What has been done to assure us that $8 billion dollars worth of LRT is the right way to go on every single street in the city? People have spent time fighting about 'streetcars vs LRT,' they've spent time claiming subways are too expensive, they've been dreaming up visions of Queens West sprouting in Malvern and Rexdale, they've stated that stop spacing will be practically the same as existing bus routes, they've been working to get it all funded and built before anyone has a chance to examine the plans closer, etc. How dare we question Transit City's wisdom in the best interest of the city!


The connection to the 196 at Yonge & Sheppard is quick and easy and undying is wildly exaggerating. Many stations have equal or longer walks to buses. The 196 always seem to show up in a few minutes for me and I've timed it at 8 minutes more than once.

 

[unimaginative2]

Again, the mistake about Transit City. They are not streetcars, but a light rail subway. They will not share the road with automobiles, but separated either in a subway or private right-of-way on the surface.

Well, according to Adam Giambrone ("They're basically just streetcars") and the TTC's own marketing ("Where no streetcar has gone before"), I think it's fair to say that they're streetcars.

I support many of these very expensive light rail projects (Finch West, Jane, even Eglinton) in the hope that the TTC will actually look at the rest of the world and start managing its routes properly. I campaigned for St. Clair in the hope that it would be better than Spadina, but my faith has not been rewarded.

 

[Undying42]

I'm sick of Transit City fans assuming that everything will work perfectly just because some guy on the internet told you LRT is the mode of the future.

Who? Steve Munro?

TTC streetcar operations are currently a disgrace and the leap of faith required to assume functional Euro-style LRT will be the result of Transit City is, frankly, astronomical.

If people abandoned the inaccurate notion that TC will be exactly like the 500 series Red Rockets when in fact it'll more closely resemble the SRT or at the very least in outlying areas like streetcar service along the Queensway private ROW.

But maybe you're all privy to something the rest of us aren't. What has been done to assure us that $8 billion dollars worth of LRT is the right way to go on every single street in the city?

A city wide network touching every city ward, sounds better than spending the same amount of money on small-scale subway extensions in limited corridors that don't organically flow with where populations currently work and live (stuck in hydro/rail corridor that aren't pedestrain friendly and has to shuttle in commuters from afar).

People have spent time fighting about 'streetcars vs LRT,' they've spent time claiming subways are too expensive, they've been dreaming up visions of Queens West sprouting in Malvern and Rexdale, they've stated that stop spacing will be practically the same as existing bus routes, they've been working to get it all funded and built before anyone has a chance to examine the plans closer, etc. How dare we question Transit City's wisdom in the best interest of the city!

I think it's the people who mock LRT/BRT fans with the remark "Transfer City" that devalue people's valid criticisms which evoke backlash against a 120+ km, city-wide mass transit transit plan in contrast to a few dozen kilometres of new subways (Sheppard to SCC, YUS extensions). If the subway planning was more diversified maybe more TC fans would support subways instead.

The connection to the 196 at Yonge & Sheppard is quick and easy and undying is wildly exaggerating. Many stations have equal or longer walks to buses. The 196 always seem to show up in a few minutes for me and I've timed it at 8 minutes more than once.

It's a long walk for me, one that seems completely unnecessary. Why can't Sheppard trains open on both sides? If that was done, all it'd take is to set up temporary walkways to bridge over the westbound tracks shaving a minute or two off the interchange. Everytime I waited at the bus terminal it took about 10 mins and sometimes I even had to ride the local bus, and trust me, it stopped ALOT. Not very rapid.

If they do decide to restart the Sheppard subway I'd hope that the gap between Yonge and Downsview prioritized ahead of the SCC link. To Victoria Park in the short term on the east end, may prove an effective interim terminus, until funds and public interest demands further expansion east.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

We're not mocking LRT, we're mocking Transfer City. Real transit advocates would recognize the difference. A little while back someone asked if anti-Transfer City folks supported LRT anywhere, and I, perhaps the strongest opponent of much of the Transfer City plan, listed at least 15 arterial corridors that would be better than Morningside or Sheppard East had the city really been serious about bringing appropriate transit to appropriate parts of the city. The intersection of Morningside & Sheppard (not Malvern!) gets two lines before Lawrence or Kipling or Dufferin? WTF? Bathurst, Wilson, Warden, Kingston, McCowan, the portlands...the list of suitable places for streetcars/LRT is quite long.

Of course, we've been given no promises that we'll be getting LRT at all...


If they used both Sheppard platforms, they'd need to throw up some railings/barriers, but that wouldn't be too difficult...it would shave a minute off the trip to the bus terminal. I don't recall ever seeing Sheppard trains using the north part of the station.

 

[unimaginative2]

If people abandoned the inaccurate notion that TC will be exactly like the 500 series Red Rockets when in fact it'll more closely resemble the SRT or at the very least in outlying areas like streetcar service along the Queensway private ROW.

Will it be completely great separated like the RT? Will it be automated? Will it have long elevated segments? Will it have subway-style stop spacing? No? Well then it will be nothing like the SRT.

I agree that it might be quite a bit like the Queensway. Have you ever tried to ride that streetcar? I have friends out there, and waits of 40 minutes or more at rush hour are routine. Steve Munro's data show that waits of up to an hour occur on a daily basis in peak periods out to Long Branch. Worth $8 billion?

A city wide network touching every city ward, sounds better than spending the same amount of money on small-scale subway extensions in limited corridors that don't organically flow with where populations currently work and live (stuck in hydro/rail corridor that aren't pedestrain friendly and has to shuttle in commuters from afar).

A city wide network of what? A streetcar isn't the same as a subway. We could have a province-wide network of buses for the cost of Transfer City, so why not cancel the project and do that instead?

I think it's the people who mock LRT/BRT fans with the remark "Transfer City" that devalue people's valid criticisms which evoke backlash against a 120+ km, city-wide mass transit transit plan in contrast to a few dozen kilometres of new subways (Sheppard to SCC, YUS extensions). If the subway planning was more diversified maybe more TC fans would support subways instead.

Here's the wonderful logical fallacy. Transit City or Sheppard+YUS. First of all, nobody has ever suggested jettisoning all the Transit City routes. The only time that comes up is when streetcar fans are trying to create a straw man that's easy to disagree with. My personal favourite is how you try to suggest that the YUS extensions somehow impact on Transit City; they're both funded completely separately by MoveOntario 2020.

That being said, if you were going to dump Transit City and replace it with subway, you'd get a hell of a lot more than that. You're already paying half the cost of a subway with the Sheppard East streetcar. The streetcar will be about $800 million, a subway running elevated east of Kennedy wouldn't cost much more than $1.5 billion at most. We've shown that extending the Bloor subway to SCC would cost the same as refurbishing the RT and its useless extension, and those costs aren't even included in the $8 billion. Since Eglinton is in a tunnel for much of its length anyway, we should be able to have the tunneled length as a subway for about $2 billion. The full DRL would also cost about $2 billion. Let's say Sheppard West would cost about $1 billion. That's $6.5 billion, leaving a billion and a half for the Finch West and Jane LRTs plus a hell of a lot of bus improvements.

Note that all these figures are based on the TTC's wildly inflated construction costs. Note that Vancouver built over 18km of real rapid transit, mostly underground, for a $1.5 billion cost to government.

If they do decide to restart the Sheppard subway I'd hope that the gap between Yonge and Downsview prioritized ahead of the SCC link. To Victoria Park in the short term on the east end, may prove an effective interim terminus, until funds and public interest demands further expansion east.

The bit between Yonge and Downsview would be nice, but the eastern extension would obviously serve vastly more people and provide access (There's that magic word again!) to a much larger area.

 

[ShonTron]

Proposed Sheppard Avenue East Light Rail Transit (LRT) Class Environmental Assessment Study

This site was last updated March 28, 2008

The study
The City of Toronto and the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) are examining ways to significantly improve transit service on Sheppard Avenue East between Don Mills Subway Station and Morningside Avenue, and potentially as far east as Meadowvale Road. Toronto's Official Plan focuses on city-building and creating a Transit City by establishing key avenues for future growth. The Official Plan and the TTC's Ridership Growth Strategy also stress the importance of making high-quality transit a more attractive option for travel. Modern environmentally-sustainable LRT service will support the growing travel needs of people who live and work in the Sheppard Corridor and beyond, and will also make the street more lively, more attractive, and more people-friendly. This is part of Toronto's Climate Change and Beautiful City initiatives to make all of Toronto a more livable and pleasant place to live and work.

The study is an environmental assessment, and will be done in accordance with the requirements of Schedule 'C' projects under the Municipal Class Environmental Assessment.

What are we recommending?
We are recommending that the bus service on Sheppard Avenue East, east of Don Mills Road, be replaced with modern electrically-powered light rail vehicles operating in dedicated transit lanes, separated from traffic. This would make light rail transit a fast, reliable, and comfortable way to travel on Sheppard Avenue East and support the growth management objectives of the Official Plan.

Official plan amendment
Implementation of this proposed LRT line would require that Toronto's Official Plan for Sheppard Avenue East, east of McCowan Road, be officially designated as a “transit priority†corridor.

We want your input
We are having two Open Houses to explain the study, to show you what we hope to achieve, to get your comments, and to answer any questions you may have. Please drop in any time between 6:30pm and 9:00pm at either of the Open Houses. We look forward to meeting you there.

[Wow. Both locations suck for transit access.]

Tuesday, April 15, 2008
Open House: 6:30pm – 9:00pm
Sts. Peter and Paul Banquet Hall
231 Milner Avenue
(south of Sheppard Ave and west of Markham Rd)
Note: This is also the open house for the SRT extension EA.

Thursday, April 17, 2008
Open House: 6:30pm – 9:00pm
Sir John A Macdonald Collegiate
2300 Pharmacy Avenue
(north of Sheppard Ave)

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Milner and Pharmacy? Only drivers are going to show up, so the only comments will be "we can't afford to lose lanes on Sheppard" - and Sheppard can't afford to lose lanes...no suburban arterial can, really, unless the arterial also gets a real rapid transit line. Average suburbanites that take transit and who will take the proposed lines probably won't show up to a meeting on a Tuesday evening...they don't get home to Scarborough from downtown until after 6pm, so they really won't want to leave the house again. Without a series of weekend meetings, this is not real public participation.

edit - oh, and to add to unimaginative2's cost estimates, the Spadina extension (if memory serves me correctly) includes a $500 million buffer to absorb cost overruns, even though the Sheppard line came it pretty much on budget. Bessarion station only cost $36 million but equivalent stations like Downsview and York U will probably cost about $100 million (even though they'll be shallower and smaller). There's no need to spend that much!