Transit City Plan

[299 bloor call control.]

The EAs for TC are starting in the earnest this year with the new Transit City Project Office established and priorities made for the first phase (Sheppard East, Eglinton, and Finch West). They're still doing a lot of background work for the overall network, deciding on operational options, vehicle needs (for the LRV order), etc. etc. I think shovels in the ground at the end of this year is optimistic, but I think it could be done, considering the improved and expedited Transit Class EA process.

 

[drum118]

The EAs for TC are starting in the earnest this year with the new Transit City Project Office established and priorities made for the first phase (Sheppard East, Eglinton, and Finch West). They're still doing a lot of background work for the overall network, deciding on operational options, vehicle needs (for the LRV order), etc. etc. I think shovels in the ground at the end of this year is optimistic, but I think it could be done, considering the improved and expedited Transit Class EA process.

There is a report going to the GTTA this month as how Sheppard and Eglinton will be funded and built buy the government since they are pickup up the cost in the first place.

My take TTC will end up doing Sheppard with Eglinton being done by the private sector.

I know Miller was not thrill at this idea at the Nov meeting.

The EA's for all the new TC lines are to get underway this year which put TTC in another positions of not having the staff to handle them as well doing the other EA's that are underway at this time.

3 of those on going EA's have PIC this months as post by me this past week.

Depending how the government handle the Eglinton contract, this line could end up being built and run by PPP.

Based on TTC track record, the Eglinton line needs to be design and built by the private sector. Most TTC projects are weeks to years behind schedule with huge over runs and no accouniblity in the first place.

Where the new carhouses are to go is a good question. The new carhouses has to be close to the new lines as well the existing lines and they will require more land than the current ones.

Hillcrest will not handle the major overhaul unless the roof of the existing structure is raise 15' to deal with the equipment on the top, not the bottom that takes place for the existing fleet.

Unless things are going to change over the next few months, the two existing carhouses will not see any major overhaul of the buildings to handle the new LRT's. The tracks will see some relocation to handle the new LRT's as they will require more room due to their length. This has been raise at TTC meetings and that the jest of it at this time.

Since Sheppard is first, the new carhouse has to be near it as well running track down to Eglington to service both lines. The SCT still can be converted to an LRT and if so, then there is the location of the new LRT carhouse. The existing carhouse will have to have it roof raise to service the LRT's as well having the yard expanded to handle the 2th 200 LRT's order.

TTC does not have the manpower to build new lines and they are facing a chose of hiring more crews or getting the private sector to do it.

Again, based on TTC track record, the private sector needs to do it and keep the current crew rebuilding the exist lines as well the subway lines since they do both in the first place.

Construction will not start until late 2009 or early 10 as you got one year of EA time frame and then you got the design stage which will take 6 months to do. Not as simple to do as some may think.

If TTC/GTTA is smart, they need to do the same setup as the Cherry St and Queens Quay EA's. They will end up with a better design and getting the BIA and other groups on board easier than what taking place on St Clair.

 

[RedRocket191]

My take TTC will end up doing Sheppard with Eglinton being done by the private sector.

The GTTA AFP (alternative financing program) works basically like this:

Government hires a private company to design and build the line. When the construction is done, the project is handed over to the government and only then does the government starts paying the company.

So while it is a P3, it's not the evil kind of P3. Its more like how you would have your house built and paid for. The upside is that experts who specialize in designing and building transit projects doing all the gruntwork. This means it can be done faster. However, you lose some control, as the city is only a supervisor. Also, as I said before, it's a type of P3 and people in Ontario tend to freak out when they hear "P3."

 

[Mike in TO]

Are all the Transit City Lines as LRT signed sealed and done?

I'm of the opinion that Eglinton and the Sheppard East extension should consider heavy rail (Subway) and it is my hope that Metrolinx (GTTA/the province) will have some influence on to eventual outcome given that they are funding 2/3 of this. The city and the current elite of transit advocates have a strong hold on Miller and his executive that every new project within 416 should be LRT and that subways seem to have no future in 416.... Transit City is a great plan overall - but Eglinton in particular has the densities and future development potential to warrant a full subway and Sheppard is already half built and should be completed regardless of what the naysayers have to say - just finish the damn thing.

I'm very concerned that these two projects in particular will be completed at a lower order of transit then they should be.... this is especially true given the fact the the McGuinty government appears willing to make significant transit investments as long as the economy remains relatively strong. It would be a tragic for Toronto to miss the opportunity to build a proper east-west subway line across Eglinton including to the airport (Cannon at the Fed level has stated numerous times that the Harper government supports an airport connection - no one at UT is a harper fan... but if there is potential political leverage for transit funding it should be targeted) and the current provincial government may be willing to fund it if the proper pressure was applied.

That said we should get on with the EAs for the rest of transit city.... I'm just hopeful that the province will step in on both the Eglinton and Sheppard lines and set the city straight.... they have every right to do so given the capital funding support that they have pledged.

 

[RedRocket191]

Are all the Transit City Lines as LRT signed sealed and done?

I'm of the opinion that Eglinton and the Sheppard East extension should consider heavy rail (Subway) and it is my hope that Metrolinx (GTTA/the province) will have some influence on to eventual outcome given that they are funding 2/3 of this. The city and the current elite of transit advocates have a strong hold on Miller and his executive that every new project within 416 should be LRT and that subways seem to have no future in 416.... Transit City is a great plan overall - but Eglinton in particular has the densities and future development potential to warrant a full subway and Sheppard is already half built and should be completed regardless of what the naysayers have to say - just finish the damn thing.

I'm very concerned that these two projects in particular will be completed at a lower order of transit then they should be.... this is especially true given the fact the the McGuinty government appears willing to make significant transit investments as long as the economy remains relatively strong. It would be a tragic for Toronto to miss the opportunity to build a proper east-west subway line across Eglinton including to the airport (Cannon at the Fed level has stated numerous times that the Harper government supports an airport connection - no one at UT is a harper fan... but if there is potential political leverage for transit funding it should be targeted) and the current provincial government may be willing to fund it if the proper pressure was applied.

That said we should get on with the EAs for the rest of transit city.... I'm just hopeful that the province will step in on both the Eglinton and Sheppard lines and set the city straight.... they have every right to do so given the capital funding support that they have pledged.

Transit City to use LRT technology is 99.9% done deal. However, 0.1% has a funny way of growing under immense public pressure / change in government.

I think the feds only support an airport link because it would be operated by a private firm. I don't think you would see the same level of support if it were a TTC subway. The feds even asked Toronto to analyze how the York U extension could be P3'd - and that was a condition of funding (and that's why the funding hasn't arrived yet).

 

[isittimetomoveyet]

Some good replies...thank you.

A couple of follow up questions too.

I am curious if anyone knows how the Sheppard Subway-LRT transfer would work. I would think for ease of use you start it underground right where the subway stops and then move it street top gradually such as when the Queens Quay car exits from Union. Anyone know if this is how it will work?

 

[isittimetomoveyet]

And there is almost 0% chance that the Eglington crosstown line and Sheppard extension will become subways. Miller, Giambrone and the TTC do not believe they are cost effective.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Technically Eglinton Crosstown is 50% underground (Black Creek-Wilket Creek) so...

 

[jn_12]

While this is a fantastic plan, my main concern coincides with that of Mike in To in that what happens when Toronto's growth warrants the need for a subway line instead of these LRT lines?

Obviously, there are only certain lines that could eventually come across this issue, but I would hate to see so much spent on lines that may need to replaced with subways in X years due to their own success.

I also think that we need some form of heavy rail to the airport, which I don't see the Eglinton line satisfying. As a tourist, I would hate to get out at an airport that is miles from the city and have to endure a lengthy LRT ride just to get to a subway that will take me where I need to go. It's really no different than the current situation tourists face with the 192 Rocket. For an airport that handles 30 million passengers (and growing), it surely warrants some form of heavy rail link to the subway network.

(sorry if this isn't the place to discuss this, but more so the place to discuss TC's actual progress. Just felt the need to reply to the above)

 

[drum118]

While this is a fantastic plan, my main concern coincides with that of Mike in To in that what happens when Toronto's growth warrants the need for a subway line instead of these LRT lines?

Obviously, there are only certain lines that could eventually come across this issue, but I would hate to see so much spent on lines that may need to replaced with subways in X years due to their own success.

I also think that we need some form of heavy rail to the airport, which I don't see the Eglinton line satisfying. As a tourist, I would hate to get out at an airport that is miles from the city and have to endure a lengthy LRT ride just to get to a subway that will take me where I need to go. It's really no different than the current situation tourists face with the 192 Rocket. For an airport that handles 30 million passengers (and growing), it surely warrants some form of heavy rail link to the subway network.

(sorry if this isn't the place to discuss this, but more so the place to discuss TC's actual progress. Just felt the need to reply to the above)

The Eglinton tunnel and stations will be design that the LRT can be upgraded to a subway at a later day.

How can you justify a heavy rail link to the airport when there will be less than 25,000 riders using it daily to the city core when the airport is build out to handle 50 million passengers a year? Only 17% head toward the city core. An LRT line can handle up to 100,000 riders a Day.

I know for a fact before the election, MTO wanted something better than the Blue22 to service all of Toronto as that is where the real riders numbers are, not the core.

How Sheppard LRT will connect with the subway is unknown at this time, but it going to be costly. I still say build the subway over to Victoria as plan as this would be a cheaper connection point. Getting over or under the 404 is where the real cost of the extension going to be. I can see a tunnel under the 404 and surfacing on the east side and been built for the subway extension at a later date.

You build an extension to the current Don Mill station by extending the platform east to house 2 car LRT train. The track wall would stay in place as a safety barrier between the 2 system that can be remove at a later date when the line is upgrade.

Sheppard does not have the numbers to support a subway east at this time let alone 20 years from now. Going to STC is a waste of money and needs to stay on Sheppard.

As for putting a carhouse at Kodak, that is a good location as it can service Jane/Finch/StClair/Eglinton lines.

At the rate the City is building the St Clair ROW (under city control with TTC responsible for putting tracks down only) it will be luckily to see the rest of the ROW built to Jane by 2012. The EA for Gunns to Jane has been ready to go for 2 years, but with all the problems up there, TTC decided it was not the right time to move forward on it. Most likely it will surface this year and again manpower shortage to do it by TTC staff. Then there is still the issue of building the Dundas line north of Bloor to connect with St Clair as this will require a full EA since the original tracks have been removed when the road was rebuilt some years ago. If the Tracks were still there, then all TTC had to do is rebuild the track and worry about the connection between Dundas and St Clair.

The GTTA AFP (alternative financing program) works basically like this:

Government hires a private company to design and build the line. When the construction is done, the project is handed over to the government and only then does the government starts paying the company.

So while it is a P3, it's not the evil kind of P3. Its more like how you would have your house built and paid for. The upside is that experts who specialize in designing and building transit projects doing all the gruntwork. This means it can be done faster. However, you lose some control, as the city is only a supervisor. Also, as I said before, it's a type of P3 and people in Ontario tend to freak out when they hear "P3."

I have no problem with this as this is the way to go as well getting fix price to prevent cost over runs. Some of the cost over runs will be built into that fix cost in the first place. The faster the P3 complete the project, faster they get their money. If they do it right, they can make a good profit.

My issue is the running the line by P3 and I can see this happening for the Eglinton line. If the P3 is to operate the line, it has to be setup in a way that the riders are not hoses like the 407 drivers as well maintaining the same seamless transfers and cost of rest of the system. This means the Government is on the hook for all extra cost that has to go to the shareholders of the P3 operating it as the P3 are in the business of making a profit.

Based on TTC track record, this P3 is the way to go for construction and the same applies to the City.

You should try getting from Calgary Airport to the City core let alone trying to get to Parkland in the south end of the city by transit. You need to drive to it. It takes me 1.5 hrs to get to the airport in Mississauga by MT that can be done in 20 minutes by car.

Most of TC is set in stone with more to be added to it.

 

[RedRocket191]

While this is a fantastic plan, my main concern coincides with that of Mike in To in that what happens when Toronto's growth warrants the need for a subway line instead of these LRT lines?

Obviously, there are only certain lines that could eventually come across this issue, but I would hate to see so much spent on lines that may need to replaced with subways in X years due to their own success.

I also think that we need some form of heavy rail to the airport, which I don't see the Eglinton line satisfying. As a tourist, I would hate to get out at an airport that is miles from the city and have to endure a lengthy LRT ride just to get to a subway that will take me where I need to go. It's really no different than the current situation tourists face with the 192 Rocket. For an airport that handles 30 million passengers (and growing), it surely warrants some form of heavy rail link to the subway network.

(sorry if this isn't the place to discuss this, but more so the place to discuss TC's actual progress. Just felt the need to reply to the above)

I think the City of Toronto official had to make a choice.

If they proposed a subway-based plan, then it would have had the extra capacity to handle ridership, but it would have been so expensive that they didn't think the province would help fund it. If they proposed a light rail-based plan, then it was more likely to get funding, but it has a lower capacity. Personally, I think they made the right choice because I doubt transit city would have got funding if it was a subway-only plan.

While this does mean that it has less capacity, the cost compared to subways allows us to build close parallel lines without wasting too much cash. If Eglinton-Crosstown gets too crowded, a line along Lawrence could be built. If Sheppard East gets too crowded, a line along Finch East could be built.

As for the airport, I envision the people-mover being connected to a GO station in the west end. Frequent GO train service would connect with downtown and with every transit line which crosses the Weston corridor.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The main problem with the Transit City plan is that there is no plan, just a "streetcars everywhere, for everyone" sentiment coupled with a blank cheque.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

While this is a fantastic plan, my main concern coincides with that of Mike in To in that what happens when Toronto's growth warrants the need for a subway line instead of these LRT lines?

I also think that we need some form of heavy rail to the airport, which I don't see the Eglinton line satisfying. As a tourist, I would hate to get out at an airport that is miles from the city and have to endure a lengthy LRT ride just to get to a subway that will take me where I need to go. It's really no different than the current situation tourists face with the 192 Rocket. For an airport that handles 30 million passengers (and growing), it surely warrants some form of heavy rail link to the subway network.

Eglinton Crosstown benefits everyone, how much clearer can that fact be emphasized?

-Tourists get from Pearson to Yonge St in a half hour.
-905ers ditto via a Renforth MT terminal.
-Limitless local residential/commercial developments en route (Scarlett Mills condos/Weston/Eglinton West BIA/boosts Forest Hill's property values, etc.)
-Limitless newcomer low-income residents (bulk of daily frequent ridership)
-Yonge& Eglinton achieving 'city centre' type status

and that's just the benefit to the GTA. For the TTC this equates to...

-Alleviation of existing system lines. Contrary to transit myth the Yonge line won't be overran with too many new passengers. New users of Eglinton will be former bus riders, the majority of whom will use YUS via Allen/Eglinton West not Yonge St. BD however benefits the most, with close to one-third it's riders now served by Eglinton.
-Improves surface transit due to greater interchange of north-south routes at Eglinton Ave. As such more buses can be routed less frequently on certain overutilized routes and instead increases service to outlying suburban areas.

There are other benefits too but you can see how in the long term you'll wonder how Toronto ever got along without Eglinton Crosstown !

 

[jn_12]

The Eglinton tunnel and stations will be design that the LRT can be upgraded to a subway at a later day.

How can you justify a heavy rail link to the airport when there will be less than 25,000 riders using it daily to the city core when the airport is build out to handle 50 million passengers a year? Only 17% head toward the city core. An LRT line can handle up to 100,000 riders a Day.

I know for a fact before the election, MTO wanted something better than the Blue22 to service all of Toronto as that is where the real riders numbers are, not the core.

Sure, only 17% of people are going to the city core. But, what is being defined by "city core"? Is that downtown? If it is, then we're ignoring the percentage of people who are traveling throughout the rest of Toronto, and can only do so quickly via subway. I certainly don't think we need a direct route from Union to Pearson but an Eglinton subway line would at least serve the airport, and the rest of Eglinton. Why not kill two birds with one stone rather than go half way and only go LRT and then have to expand that line? It's not like this would be the Sheppard fiasco repeated. At least this one would go somewhere.

We also have to remember that subways are far more attractive options for regular folk. The number of people that I talk to everyday at work that use the island airport because they hate getting to Pearson due to there being no express route other than taxi is staggering. I seriously doubt the idea of LRT to Pearson will sway them.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

How can you justify a heavy rail link to the airport when there will be less than 25,000 riders using it daily to the city core when the airport is build out to handle 50 million passengers a year? Only 17% head toward the city core. An LRT line can handle up to 100,000 riders a Day.

Sheppard does not have the numbers to support a subway east at this time let alone 20 years from now. Going to STC is a waste of money and needs to stay on Sheppard.

I totally agree that Sheppard East should be on the backburner of priorities since in our folly we can't even route a subway to STC from the south. However if 25,000 daily passengers can justify a LRT on Don Mills, DON MILLS, why not something for Pearson? EC will eventually be a full-ledged subway. Like Red Rocket said, a provincial election couldn't be won on a Toronto-based transit agenda alone. Subway from the getgo would've bled the $17 billion budget dry.

I feel transit so low into Toronto because commuters cannot find a time and cost effective means of using transit to get there. Once the change is made we'll see upwards of 60,000 commuters from Pearson alone and another 140,000 from the catchment of Eglinton itself, making it the third most utilized line in the city.

The main problem with the Transit City plan is that there is no plan, just a "streetcars everywhere, for everyone" sentiment coupled with a blank cheque.

It's a utilitarian viewpoint and for election purposes it worked . I don't think all seven LRT lines will ever get built in their entirity but at least one or two would make the lives of 000s if not millions way better. A Yonge Line to RHC...16th...Major Mack...Newcastle only benefits the Yonge catchment, time for a pluralist approach to transit expension I say!