scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
An express branch does, yes. It's not very "express," though, since it makes all local stops until it hits the 404, where it runs down to Fairview.
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Transit City Details
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Yes. The 139 bus goes to Don Mills at Fairview Mall but it only runs rush hours because it couldn't draw people away from the Finch bus direct to Yonge.
If Finch riders can't be lured to the Sheppard subway then where are the Sheppard subway riders expected to come from? Yonge riders come from places much further away than 1km to ride Yonge and Bloor-Danforth riders come from places much further than that as well. If people aren't going to find a subway 1km south more convenient than their current bus route then what was the justification in the first place? There is no way a Sheppard subway can be justified by the people who live on Sheppard alone.
If the subway had been built on Finch rather than Sheppard wouldn't the same arguement be true for Sheppard bus riders? Isn't this just stating that the bus is fine and that the route should only have been upgraded to LRT as a capacity increase since the convenience of the existing system wasn't that bad?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
It's really simple and I've said this dozens of times over the years: few Finch riders will switch to the stubway but they'll switch to a finished line.
Based on my experience, I'd even suggest that a majority of 139 riders who get off at Don Mills station do not continue on to the subway, they transfer to another bus route or go to Fairview. The 139 also runs all day since it acts as a regular 39 bus between Neilson and the 404 and a one-stop express from the stubway to Seneca college.
And the same would not be true of the Sheppard bus - it was always very busy and extremely slow, which is partially why it was partially upgraded. In isolation, the Finch East bus is fine, and conversion to streetcars likely wouldn't result in higher capacity, anyway.
Based on my experience, I'd even suggest that a majority of 139 riders who get off at Don Mills station do not continue on to the subway, they transfer to another bus route or go to Fairview. The 139 also runs all day since it acts as a regular 39 bus between Neilson and the 404 and a one-stop express from the stubway to Seneca college.
And the same would not be true of the Sheppard bus - it was always very busy and extremely slow, which is partially why it was partially upgraded. In isolation, the Finch East bus is fine, and conversion to streetcars likely wouldn't result in higher capacity, anyway.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Why would they switch to a finished line but not the stubway? There must be a convenience aspect. They must find it more convenient to not take the Sheppard stubway and that inconvenience must be measured in terms of time, frequency, and/or transfers. Therefore, an LRT on Finch East swinging down Victoria Park and entering the tunnel to Yonge would address that inconvenience since it would be (a) just as fast if not faster to the Yonge-Sheppard intersection, (b) frequent, and (c) transfer-less. A bus from Finch to the finished Sheppard subway would still be only as frequent as north-south routes north of Sheppard (i.e. not as frequent as a Finch route could be due to there being a very small route length from Sheppard to Steeles) and would require an extra transfer.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Every N/S route up there other than Pharmacy and Middlefield would have very high frequencies - they are already 10 minutes or better in rush hour. There's lots of potential riders north of Steeles and overall transit use would go up if Agincourt got a subway. If it was extended over to the Spadina line, too, then you'd really start drawing in riders from everywhere between York Mills to Steeles.
Some people will always take the Finch bus (hey, there's demand for an Avenue Road and a Bay bus), if only to ensure they get seats on the Yonge line (although this will vanish when Yonge's extended) but many would find their trips even faster if it was a couple of minutes south to the Sheppard line and then over on the subway. Many, many people take N/S lines to get to Finch (this is made easy by the frequency and reliability of local routes), and then go E/W from there, so they'd love staying on these N/S routes for an extra 5 minutes if it meant taking a subway instead. Extend Danforth to STC and you'd really cannabalize Finch's ridership...overall ridership would go waaay up, though. Why use LRT as a justification for forcing people to ride relatively slow surface routes for much longer distances than they need to?
Some people will always take the Finch bus (hey, there's demand for an Avenue Road and a Bay bus), if only to ensure they get seats on the Yonge line (although this will vanish when Yonge's extended) but many would find their trips even faster if it was a couple of minutes south to the Sheppard line and then over on the subway. Many, many people take N/S lines to get to Finch (this is made easy by the frequency and reliability of local routes), and then go E/W from there, so they'd love staying on these N/S routes for an extra 5 minutes if it meant taking a subway instead. Extend Danforth to STC and you'd really cannabalize Finch's ridership...overall ridership would go waaay up, though. Why use LRT as a justification for forcing people to ride relatively slow surface routes for much longer distances than they need to?
EnviroTO
Senior Member
LRT in a private ROW is a way to save money while increasing capacity, speed, and service reliability. It is not a justification for forcing people to ride relatively slow surface vehicles. Some of the tram/tram-subway systems that exist in Europe would put the TTC system to shame even without full blown subways. The average user who goes into a tunnel station, hops on a LRT, and gets off at another tunnel station wouldn't know that they were not riding a full blown subway. Likewise a rider of a surface level LRT with no street level crossings can't tell the difference between that and a full blown surface level metro. It is the convenience that matters and with a proper ROW and signalling there need not be any significant difference between an LRT and a subway.
Would I prefer a Danforth extention to SCC and a Sheppard extension to SCC? Of course I would. However, it seems obvious that the city has no interest in spending that amount of money on subways and would prefer to build a more cost effective city wide network of LRTs. In that context putting ramps out of the end of the Sheppard subway and removing material from the station platforms to lower them is a relatively cost effective way to make hopping on a Sheppard East LRT a more convenient option while making good use of the subway tunnel already built and better service in the tunnel than what exists now.
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/han/hannover.htm
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Okay, and Madrid builds 10km of subway a year for what it would cost us to build 1km. So what? This is Toronto, and the TTC has shown absolutely no sign of planning to run systems anything like those in Europe. St. Clair was supposed to be a model for the future LRT lines, and it doesn't resemble any European system I've ever ridden.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Well in Europe they would yank out half the stops and make people walk further. If the stops are spaced the same as bus routes it shouldn't be surprising that the vehicle doesn't move much faster than a bus route. It isn't a failure of the technology... it is a failure of the implementation. On Bloor the subway stops at Yonge, Bay, Queens Park (Museum isn't really on the Bloor line but it provides service to the area nevertheless), St.George, Spadina, and Bathurst. On St.Clair you have St.Clair station, Yonge St (after just leaving the station), Deer Park, Avenue Rd, maybe a stop east of Warren, Russel Hill, Spadina Rd, maybe a stop before entering St.Clair West, a time wasting loop to get to a stop at St.Clair West station, and a stop at Bathurst. So 8-10 stations compared to 5-6. I really doesn't matter if it is a subway or not... if the Bloor line had to make about double the stops to get from Yonge to Bathurst and take a circuit route to connect with the University line then of course it would be slow as well. With that many stops timing of stop light signals is almost irrelevant. The problem of course is that nobody wants their stop to disappear so rather than tell people they are out of luck and they will have to walk like people on Bloor and the Danforth to get to the stop, they turn LRT into a bus route. LRT stops should be spaced no closer together than 1/3 km. If there are too many whiners complaining about loosing their stop then add a bus service like the 97B which shows up every 30 minutes to service those intermediate stops.
If they were serious about implementing LRT/tram ROWs as a service upgrade there would be a stop at St.Clair Station (in the station), Avenue Rd, Russell Hill, St.Clair West Station (on a new platform under St.Clair so the LRT/tram can continue going straight since it is a through service), and at Bathurst.
On Spadina they could yank out the stops at Sussex, Wilcox, Nassau, Sullivan, and Richmond. Throw on a bus that shows up every half hour to which stops at those stops and voila, something much closer to the service on Yonge. Timed lights at Nassau, Sullivan, Adelaide, and Richmond would actually mean something because the streetcar wouldn't need to stop immediately before or after the light anyways.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
You're absolutely right about how they do things in Europe. Unfortunately, the TTC and Councillor Giambrone have said that they are not going to reduce stop frequency.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Well-put and fustratingly true, Enviro. I often find myself flabbergasted by just how close together stops often are.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
It's something that should be addressed before we spend billions of dollars on similar routes.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Not really that critical an issue, considering most of the cost will have more to do with infrastructure and rolling stock.
AoD
AoD
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Yes, Alvin, but wouldn't it make sense to figure out how to make that infrastructure and rolling stock actually useful before spending the billions to built it?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
unimaginative:
Indeed, but I somehow suspect such a minor issue is being used as a Trojan Horse against LRT (or doing anything in general - a la SOS)
AoD
Indeed, but I somehow suspect such a minor issue is being used as a Trojan Horse against LRT (or doing anything in general - a la SOS)
AoD
EnviroTO
Senior Member
^ ... and the infrastructure includes ROW, sidewalk, and road alignments that bend and twist to fit these unnecessary platforms into the road allowance and include shelters and other costs which could be spared. It makes no sense to build all the concrete platforms and shelters only to remove them later leaving the whole street look unfinished and piecemeal.