Toronto's Obsession With Diversity?

[nfitz]

In regards to schedule, I'm pointing out the different between the British pronunciation "shejule" and American pronunciation "skedjewel" if that helps you to understand what I mean.

I am British, and I've always pronounced it "skejule". The "shej" thing seems to be a variant ... both in parts of Canada and in parts of Britain (perhaps even most parts of Britain).

In regards to lieutenant, let's see what Wikipedia says:

As far as lieutenant ... I certainly agree it's bizarre ... but so is much British pronunciation ... tough, though, and through for example. But so is some distinctly Canadian prononounciation, such as "artic". The origin isn't really the issue; it's the use. Surely "leftenant" is the primary Canadian pronunciation ... what does the Canadian military use?

 

[dahusbandofbath]

It's all an effort to be different from the Americans rather than being distinctly Canadian.

You make us sound so disingenuous! If we hang on to traits that some see as British, it may simply be because, if you're an old-timer Ontarian, you're great-grand-parents were probably from Britain (or Ireland.) For example, we say "eh" because the Scots that settled Ontario said "eh".

 

[EnviroTO]

Does it strike anyone else as pretentious when Peter Mansbridge and some other newscasters use a pronunciation such as "shejule" for "schedule"? Or "leftenant" for "lieutenant"? I'm sorry but I couldn't say those things with a straight face. I'm all for keeping spellings like "valour" and "honour" because they're pretty. But "leftenant" just doesn't make any sense to me.

Hey, that is how I say it. Your nu shehjule is abouwt to be PRO-cessed luftenant.

 

[dahusbandofbath]

Please forgive this rant, but sometimes I get the impression from Torontians of non-British heritage that they think we Anglo-Canadians have no culture or traditions. I can assure you, we do! Unfortunately, without a huge pop-culture industry to project it, new-arrivals to Canada often don't see it, especially if they never leave Toronto. My Portuguese -Canadian wife was certainly guilty of this. She assumed that Anglo-Canadians were just like the people they saw on American TV. Whenever I leave Toronto, I get a kick out of seeing and hearing Canadianisms that were so familiar to me as a kid, but that I don't hear so much, expecially since I married into a Portuguese family.
Outside of Toronto, a LOT of people really do talk like Don Cherry! Certainly in my family, they do!
We always had jellied salad at any important meal, as well as sweet pickles in a bowel in the middle of the table (olives are for Italians!)
Bread rolls should be soft and sweet -- NEVER crusty!
Rhubarb pie with vanilla ice cream is a classic!
You should always have some squares and cookies in a round tin in the pantry for company (preferably all oat based!)
A church luncheon was a fraud without cream cheese sandwiches, done on crustless bread and then rolled into a spiral.
Our houses were furnished with lots of oak and pine. I didn't see much fancy dark mahogany as a kid. I also remember lots of flower patterns and home-stitched sofa pillows.
And then, of course, there was that "never make a fuss" attitude that pervaded all social interactions. Don't talk too much -- let others speak. Modesty above all! Never act self-important! Fancy clothes and cars are fine for high falootin' movie stars, but not for someone from ....... (insert name of Canadian town.)
Such a sober culture! I can see how it lacks a certain appeal for those used to a little more permissiveness and flare!
But it's our old-Ontario culture and I'm rather fond of it!

 

[MisterF]

I'd rather have what toronto has where everyone can maintain their culture rather than what has happened in the US where everyone abandons their culture just so they can fit in.

Actually if anything it's the other way around. Studies have shown that immigrants to Canada tend to integrate more than immigrants to the States. We've built this "mosaic" myth about ourselves, but that doesn't mean it's true. You only need to see how much more mixed Toronto is than most US cities. Despite the name "multiculturalism", government programs actually promote integration.

Long-time Ontarians normally pronounce "oo" as a diphthong -- short "i" followed by long "u" run together.

As someone who grew up in small town Ontario, that's not my experience at all. Same thing with replacing "th" with "d". This thread is the first I've ever heard of it.

Or "leftenant" for "lieutenant"? I'm sorry but I couldn't say those things with a straight face. I'm all for keeping spellings like "valour" and "honour" because they're pretty. But "leftenant" just doesn't make any sense to me.

Lef-tenant is every bit as Canadian as it is British. Does "colonel" make sense to you?

I agree about Toronto being obsessed with diversity. I constantly hear people praising it, and yet I have never heard anybody mention a single advantage of it. Perhaps it's more about the city's obsession with standing out, and diversity is an easy way to do it ("It's the city where you always need to communicate with hand gestures!").

So in a major world city (and that's what Toronto is) if someone from any ethnic background can feel comfortable pretty much anywhere in the city, you don't see the advantages in that? Really?

Outside of Toronto, a LOT of people really do talk like Don Cherry! Certainly in my family, they do!

I find it's mostly a rural/blue collar thing. I live in Cobourg, and most people here don't talk like Don Cherry. But quite a few people who grew up on farms or work in construction do.

 

[adma]

You didn't mention butter tarts?

 

[Dan416]

I am British, and I've always pronounced it "skejule". The "shej" thing seems to be a variant ... both in parts of Canada and in parts of Britain (perhaps even most parts of Britain).

As far as lieutenant ... I certainly agree it's bizarre ... but so is much British pronunciation ... tough, though, and through for example. But so is some distinctly Canadian prononounciation, such as "artic". The origin isn't really the issue; it's the use. Surely "leftenant" is the primary Canadian pronunciation ... what does the Canadian military use?

I have heard British people pronounce "schedule" with the "k" sound before, but I just assumed it was the influence of American TV
Leftenant I will never say as long as I'm on this continent. If I go to Britain, maybe I'll speak British. As for people pronouncing "arctic" incorrectly, that's just what I said, it's incorrect. No matter how many times people mix up "were" and "we're" and "your" and "you're" and "its" and "it's" it doesn't change the fact that there's a proper time to use one or the other. Hearing "artic" is a much graver offense than "leftenant" which at least is correct and/or historical in Britain. I'm pretty sure the Canadian military would use "leftenant" but that doesn't mean it sounds any less strange to my ears. I grew up watching Star Trek since I was a little kid. You can blame Star Trek for "leftenant" sounding wrong to me. Picard was played by Patrick Stewart who is British and he never said "leftenant".

Lef-tenant is every bit as Canadian as it is British. Does "colonel" make sense to you?

The pronunciation of "colonel" might not make sense, but it's at least consistent and well-known.

I find it's mostly a rural/blue collar thing. I live in Cobourg, and most people here don't talk like Don Cherry. But quite a few people who grew up on farms or work in construction do.

It would be interesting, in the future, to compare the Urban/Toronto/GTA accent with the ROO (rest of Ontario) accent (excluding rural/blue collar). PS I'm going to start using ROO more often now.

 

[nfitz]

As for people pronouncing "arctic" incorrectly, that's just what I said, it's incorrect. ... Hearing "artic" is a much graver offense than "leftenant" which at least is correct and/or historical in Britain.

Artic is a perfectly correct pronounciation in Canada

The Canadian Oxford dictionary gives two pronounciations. arktik and artik.

For lieutenant it also gives both pronunciations; however goes on to note "The pronunciation leftenent is used in the Canadian Forces ...and then goes on to note that outside the forces the usage of lootenant is more common except when referring to the Lieutenant-Governor.

I'm quite intrigued by the skejule/shejule pronunciation. I wish I kind find a good reference for various dialects showing how different words were pronounced.

 

[urbandreamer]

Please forgive this rant, but sometimes I get the impression from Torontians of non-British heritage that they think we Anglo-Canadians have no culture or traditions. I can assure you, we do! Unfortunately, without a huge pop-culture industry to project it, new-arrivals to Canada often don't see it, especially if they never leave Toronto. My Portuguese -Canadian wife was certainly guilty of this. She assumed that Anglo-Canadians were just like the people they saw on American TV. Whenever I leave Toronto, I get a kick out of seeing and hearing Canadianisms that were so familiar to me as a kid, but that I don't hear so much, expecially since I married into a Portuguese family.
Outside of Toronto, a LOT of people really do talk like Don Cherry! Certainly in my family, they do!
We always had jellied salad at any important meal, as well as sweet pickles in a bowel in the middle of the table (olives are for Italians!)
Bread rolls should be soft and sweet -- NEVER crusty!
Rhubarb pie with vanilla ice cream is a classic!
You should always have some squares and cookies in a round tin in the pantry for company (preferably all oat based!)
A church luncheon was a fraud without cream cheese sandwiches, done on crustless bread and then rolled into a spiral.
Our houses were furnished with lots of oak and pine. I didn't see much fancy dark mahogany as a kid. I also remember lots of flower patterns and home-stitched sofa pillows.
And then, of course, there was that "never make a fuss" attitude that pervaded all social interactions. Don't talk too much -- let others speak. Modesty above all! Never act self-important! Fancy clothes and cars are fine for high falootin' movie stars, but not for someone from ....... (insert name of Canadian town.)
Such a sober culture! I can see how it lacks a certain appeal for those used to a little more permissiveness and flare!
But it's our old-Ontario culture and I'm rather fond of it!

I imagine you are from Wingham, Ontario.

 

[urbandreamer]

It would be interesting, in the future, to compare the Urban/Toronto/GTA accent with the ROO (rest of Ontario) accent (excluding rural/blue collar). PS I'm going to start using ROO more often now.

Very bad assumption to make. Bruce County has a very different accent than Perth County does, or Eastern Ontario etc. I may have grown up in small town Ontario, but not being from a rural Ontario family (I mean way back play back), I grew up with a very keen ear for different Ontario accents, all of which were foreign to my British/American influences.

ROO vs GTA is invalid. Like saying Woodbridge gino/a talk is the same as Oshawa talk.

 

[MisterF]

Very bad assumption to make. Bruce County has a very different accent than Perth County does, or Eastern Ontario etc. I may have grown up in small town Ontario, but not being from a rural Ontario family (I mean way back play back), I grew up with a very keen ear for different Ontario accents, all of which were foreign to my British/American influences.

ROO vs GTA is invalid. Like saying Woodbridge gino/a talk is the same as Oshawa talk.

There are differences but they're minor. The English Canadian accent from Ontario to BC is one of the most consistent accents anywhere.

I have heard British people pronounce "schedule" with the "k" sound before, but I just assumed it was the influence of American TV
Leftenant I will never say as long as I'm on this continent. If I go to Britain, maybe I'll speak British. As for people pronouncing "arctic" incorrectly, that's just what I said, it's incorrect. No matter how many times people mix up "were" and "we're" and "your" and "you're" and "its" and "it's" it doesn't change the fact that there's a proper time to use one or the other. Hearing "artic" is a much graver offense than "leftenant" which at least is correct and/or historical in Britain. I'm pretty sure the Canadian military would use "leftenant" but that doesn't mean it sounds any less strange to my ears. I grew up watching Star Trek since I was a little kid. You can blame Star Trek for "leftenant" sounding wrong to me. Picard was played by Patrick Stewart who is British and he never said "leftenant".

All this lecturing on the correct pronunciation of "arctic" and you refuse to pronounce "lieutenant" correctly? What continent you're on doesn't matter, it's pronounced lef-tenant here as it is in most Commonwealth countries. Funny how you put more stock on how a character on an American TV show says it than our own military.

 

[old boy]

Cobourg, eh ? Ain't we lucky.

 

[Roy G Biv]

I find it's mostly a rural/blue collar thing. I live in Cobourg, and most people here don't talk like Don Cherry.

You need to hang out at the Northumberland Mall.

 

[MisterF]

You need to hang out at the Northumberland Mall.

I go to the gym there. It's the only part of the mall with any people...

 

[Dan416]

Artic is a perfectly correct pronounciation in Canada

The Canadian Oxford dictionary gives two pronounciations. arktik and artik.

For lieutenant it also gives both pronunciations; however goes on to note "The pronunciation leftenent is used in the Canadian Forces ...and then goes on to note that outside the forces the usage of lootenant is more common except when referring to the Lieutenant-Governor.

I'm quite intrigued by the skejule/shejule pronunciation. I wish I kind find a good reference for various dialects showing how different words were pronounced.

Hmm looking at my OED and Oxford Canadian, you are correct the Canadian edition acutally does list "artic", though it lists "arctic" first. The OED lists only "arctic". I guess if enough uneducated people pronounce something incorrectly it can eventually mangle it's way into a Canadian dictionary eh?

All this lecturing on the correct pronunciation of "arctic" and you refuse to pronounce "lieutenant" correctly? What continent you're on doesn't matter, it's pronounced lef-tenant here as it is in most Commonwealth countries. Funny how you put more stock on how a character on an American TV show says it than our own military.

Maybe I'm suffering from a little bit of spelling pronunciation, but there's a "c" in "arctic" so we should pronounce it "arctic", whereas there's no "f" in "lieutenant" so we shouldn't put one in there.

As for how much stock I put in "one character", it's not ONE CHARACTER. It's EVERY CHARACTER throughout every single series and episode of STAR TREK, ever! And I've watched every episode! Same goes for nearly every sci fi series I've ever watched. I was probably first exposed to the "leftenant" pronunciation watching CBC! That said, if I'm watching the BBC Horatio Hornblower series on TVO, I expect them to say "leftenant" because it sounds correct with a British accent. I've never said "leftenant" was wrong. I just think it sounds wrong with a Canadian accent. And yes, that's a subjective opinion.