Toronto Yonge Sheppard Centre Renovations and Expansion | 123.13m | 35s | RioCan | BDP Quadrangle

I would think the Sheppard Centre location would be more interested in capturing the commuters coming on and off the subway. Those customers just want to grab a quick coffee and go. It might be better for them to set up some sort of express that keeps the line moving and serves people more quickly rather than people who want to sit and eat, relax, etc. Locals who want to linger can still wander to the food court or visit one of the other more spacious Tims locations.

I agree that the current setup is terrible. The last time I was in there was during the ice storm, as they still had power and thus precious hot coffee and soup. :)

The take out customers are the ones that they value most and make most of their money from. The ones that linger are valuable in their own way, but nowhere near as equal. The Tim's at Finch station makes a killing!
 
The tone in this thread and the Emerald Park one between members of this forum is becoming toxic. While I appreciate the debate and conversation, the threads are escalating into personal challenges and insults.

If the mods are watching, I don't know if there's anything that can be done to cool things off, but something needs to be done.
 
I was going to let your post go, but this annoys me.



So what?! What have you got against Filipinos? How they talk? The Philippines is one of the most English-bilingual countries in the world! By the way you type, their English is probably better than yours (learn how to use punctuation). Also, if you drop the obnoxiousness, perhaps you'll encounter friendlier interactions. I understand you are of Chinese descent. Do your parents have perfect English? Should they not work?

You also judge Willowdale residents by their race and figure out who cycles and who doesn't. Where were you even educated?!

Honestly, this kind of racist talk should not be condoned in urbantoronto!


PipolChap,.... stop trying to make up things when you're in disagreement with the truth,... now you can "Suck it up!"
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...-rosario-varacalli.4829/page-137#post-1165323

I'm not being racist.

Canadians love TimHortons and most TimHortons store get 4, 4.5 out of 5 on Yelp.ca,... rare to see any TimHortons get under 3.5,.... both SheppardCentre and Ultima-Condo TimHortons store score below this standard,.... but the SheppardCentre TimHorton scored 1.5/5 on 10 reviews and the comments there was quite nasty about the staff and quality of coffee served! Thus, I'm not the only one who thinks the SheppardCentre TimHortons is terrible,....
https://www.yelp.ca/biz/tim-hortons-toronto-153
Ultima-Condo TimHortons has 3/5 on 5 reviews,... seems to be same owner and some of the same staff but bigger store with more seating area = happier customers! ;p
https://www.yelp.ca/biz/tim-hortons-north-york-7?osq=tim+horton

I'm confirming what you said about high margin at these TimHortons coffee shops,.... which IMHO and those of some of the reviewers on Yelp, the high margin seems to be from cutting quality and minimizing cost by minimizing labour cost. The local TimHortons at SheppardCentre and Ultima seems to have the same owner who will be opening the EmeraldPark TimHorton soon; this particular owner tends to focus on hiring staff of Philippines descent. Why?

Let's face it, in Canada - there are many low paying occupations that most Canadians refuse to do, like being nanny or house-keeping or retirement home elderly care workers, serving coffee at TimHortons,... so these jobs are often "out-sourced" to new immigrant workers with these skill-sets,... and they provide a vital service to our economy because they do jobs that most Canadians won't,... but often as reported frequently in the media especially with regards to nannies,.... these foreign workers here on work-visas are taken advantage of.

And this particular TimHortons owner seems to be taking advantage of this situation to lower his/her cost and thus increase profit margin,.... is this owner also taking advantage of his/her Philippine workers and the situation they're in. You mentioned Starbucks and SecondCup,... go to the local Starbuck and SecondCup, who serves you coffee there? Why? Don't Starbucks and SecondCup still have high profit margins??? Do they need to take advantage of other people for the sake of higher profit margins?
 
Ultimately, corporate gets the majority of those margins. The franchise owner has a lot less worries than as an independent but, they see the money leaving too. You usually don't get the most business savvy owning franchises. They will tend to nickel and dime staff because that's the one thing they can do oblivious to the repercussions.

My neighbourhood is primarily white and the retail employees reflect that. There definitely is a racially focused reputation when it comes to nannies though. Nannies from the Philippines are desired not because no one else wants the job.
 
The small Chinese buffet place (above the ShoppersDrugMart) is now gone,.... it was there a few months ago,... that Chinese buffet place probably been there for about 15-20 year,... not on list of tenants for renovated SheppardCentre mall,... got "pushed out" by RioCan's higher rent. Too bad, same thing happened to:
- Korean lottery booth (still looking for another place)
- Chinese key-battery place (forced to retire)
- Korean Pearl Dry Cleaner (moved to EmeraldPark)
- Persian Woodbine Alteration (now FancyDryCleaner at EmeraldPark)
- Korean nail salon
- Asian owned mini-grocery store by the food court
All these long-time SheppardCentre Mall small mom&pop ethnic shop-owners got "pushed out" by RioCan's higher rent,... as RioCan focus on bringing in brand name stores,... and become more of a generic mall. SpringRoll and Mirage (owner retiring) got "pushed out" as well,.. but they hardly qualify as small mom&pop shop-owners that'll get hurt the most.

Meanwhile BasilBox, Chipotle, ThaiExpress are coming in,... they're brand name stores where customer usually interact with staff that are constantly changing and rarely get to know the shop-owner.

Seems for RioCan, generic brand name store "Trump" the personal customer interaction of small mom&pop stores-owners.

Meanwhile small mom&pop ethnic stores are opening up at EmeraldPark mall,... where it's more difficult to get brand name shops to open up. That used to be the situation at SheppardCentre as it was left to rot by the previous owner,... that's why there were so many small mom&pop ethnic stores at SheppardCentre by the time RioCan & Kingsett purchased it,... but once RioCan took over with their mall renovation and everything,.... guess who gets "pushed out",....
 
All these long-time SheppardCentre Mall small mom&pop ethnic shop-owners got "pushed out" by RioCan's higher rent,... as RioCan focus on bringing in brand name stores,... and become more of a generic mall.

Sadly, this is the trend everywhere. Back in Halifax (my home city), several "Mom and Pop" food court tenants got pushed out of Scotia Square Mall by Crombie-REIT so they could lease the space to McDonalds, Tim Hortons, Subway, and other major players.

For anyone interested, here's one example. Twenty-one (21) years in the mall and a loyal customer base, but hey, Timmies wanted their spot:

http://www.thecoast.ca/Restaurantan...h-provider-getting-evicted-from-scotia-square

It used to be great when you had choice and variety, and something "special" you couldn't get anywhere else. But just as they've done with newspapers and other forms of media, the powers-that-be are gradually chipping away at independent and unique "voices" so they can serve us all the same, generic, stuff.

At least the owners of PG's back in Halifax were able to set up shop somewhere else in the neighbourhood. I'm hoping some of the other refugees from SC can also do the same around here.
 
Unfortunately, it's the same old story all the time and all over the city. As the area gets more popular and expensive, the independents move to lower rent areas. I have mixed feeling about this. We'll eventually be sitting in our overpriced homes eating chain foods and expensive artisan goods cause these are the only businesses that can thrive here.

The aforementioned businesses that got "pushed out" were not unique businesses anyway. Lotteries, keys, batteries, cleaners and alteration places are ubiquitous in the area. Hardly anything to get really nostalgic or sad about. I guess we can be thankful lower rent Emerald Park can cater their needs.
 
It would actually make more sense for SheppardCentreMall on east-side of Yonge Street to become the area's ethnic-centric mall,... and EmeraldParkMall on west-side of Yonge Street to become the area's more generic non-ethnic mall. Does anyone "see" why?
 
A mall for everyone?,.... tough to do that when SheppardCentre Mall management-owners "pushes out" the small ethnic mom&pop retailers,...

Is RioCan's SheppardCentre Mall going more generic and less ethnic, the right approach for this area? Many customers like going to a store where they actually know the owner and can converse with them in their native language. What's the size of the local visible minority demographic?

As RioCan's SheppardCentre Mall raises their rent/lease terms, SheppardCentre Mall owner-management essentially "pushes out" the small ethnic mom&pop stores in favour of larger better known brand name franchise stores like BasilBox, Chipotle, ThaiExpress,... but are these really authentic Vietnamese, Mexican or Thai ethnic food OR "fake" water-down food that sort-of taste like something from another culture but altered for a more Canadian market? Who do you see buying this stuff? Would any self-respecting Mexican person be eating at Chipotle Mexican Grill? Would a real Vietnamese person enjoy his/her meal at BasilBox? Would a person from Thailand a meal from ThaiExpress? Are these really authentic ethnic food from those culture,... or are they over-priced ethnic food "faked" for White folks?

Are these the new "Chinese" Chop-Suey restaurants - "Chinese" restaurants that popped up throughout NorthAmerican towns generations ago and still survive in many small towns, forced to use whatever locally available ingredients to create "Chinese-like" dishes altered to Western taste? Often serving non-authentic Chinese dishes like Chop-Suey, Egg Rolls, Sweet&Sour Chicken Balls, Sesame Chicken, Orange Chicken, Lo-Mein, Egg Foo Young, General Tso's Chicken, Fortune Cookie, etc,... How often do you see authentic Chinese people eating at "Chinese" Chop-Suey restaurants? If you want real authentic ethnic food, go to places where these ethnic people actually line up to eat these ethnic food.

Is it a good idea for RioCan's SheppardCentre Mall strategy to favour larger better known (but less authentically ethnic) brand name franchise stores like BasilBox, Chipotle, ThaiExpress,... especially when considering there's a high number of visible minorities here - especially Korean, Persian and Chinese - including newer immigrants,... OR is EmeraldPark retail area, especially their food court where there's a variety of small mom&pop ethnic restaurants generally creating more flavourful authentic ethnic dishes specific for those ethnicity the better approach? Especially when the local area has a high demographic of visible minorities. Time will tell,....


Warning: Trolls who can't handle the truth and reality shouldn't be reading any further,... yes, that's right, now I bring out the links, photo, Statistic Canada Census data, etc,... as I usually do to prove my point,...


Here's an interesting map by Jeff Clark (software developer specializing in data visualization) based on Statistic Canada Census data from 2011, each dot represent each person in GTA and where he/her live, the colour of the dot represent the ethnicity of that person,... based on visible minority status:
- blue for White
- red dot for Asian
- brown dot for SouthAsian
- green dot for Black
- yellow dot for Mixed/Other
The aggregate of which creates an zoom-able mosaic map with a very colourful visual representation of visible minority distribution and population density throughout the the GTA. Thus, single Residential House areas are more sparsely dotted depending on lot size and high-density condo areas are more deeply saturated with colour. For high density condo developments where each colour dot represent the ethnicity of one person, the resulting aggregate colour could be various shade of all the ethnicity represented in that development (based on RGB colour wheel/palette blending) - the brightness and saturation of the resulting colour represents the density.

http://neoformix.com/Projects/DotMaps/TorontoVisMin.html
Now the trolls have a new screensaver! Admit it,... you were zooming in and out all over this map! While Toronto is a very diverse multi-cultural city,... as this map clearly shows, it's also quite segregated!

VisibleMinority_StatsCanadaCensusData2011_GTA.png



Let's zoom in on NorthYorkCentre,.... and see how exciting the "ethnic angle" becomes,....
VisibleMinority_StatsCanadaCensusData2011_NorthYorkCentre.png


Hmmm, so this is why certain condo developments gets targeted at certain ethnic groups! Based on this map, for RioCan's marketing budget for their new residential tower,... RioCan would be wise to have about 2/3 of that budget targeted towards the Korean-Chinese market,.... which I'm sure they will,.... but yet they won't do an ethnic mall,.... and are more than happy to "push out" all the small ethnic mom&pop retailers,....

In NorthYorkCentre where 3 largest ethnicity are Korean, Persian and Chinese; east of Yonge Street just north of Highway 401, Avondale Condominiums are purplish (Red and Blue combined Note: Persians are considered White not Asian),... but heading north, the condo development becomes more red and brighter red (higher percentage and concentration of Asian) closer to the heart of KoreaTownNorth just south of Finch - but yet, condo towers on the West of Yonge in KoreaTownNorth are purple (fairer mix of Asians and Whites (mainly Persians)).

And now you can see why HullmarkCentre WholeFoodsMarket supermarket isn't doing very well here - usually more employees than customers there. Why? This store is primarily dependent on walk-in customers but most of their potential walk-in customers are the visible minorities concentrated in the high density condos along Yonge within walking distance,.... the "Whites" in their demographic research also includes Persians who make up a significant demographic here and have their own cultural diet,.... Due to the product line at WholeFoodsMarket, it's difficult for them to go after the ethnic market and thus their supermarket doesn't do well here. And their potential car driving customers thinks,... as long as I'm already driving, why not just drive a bit further and save a lot more money on grocery.

The new Longos at SheppardCentre should be able to target the ethnic market better,... but they're primarily just stealing customers mainly from HullmarkCentre WholeFoodsMarket, EmpressWalk Loblaws and maybe the Metro on Church Ave.


When I moved into NorthYorkCentre 25 years ago (KoreaTownNorth was only on SpringGardenAve & only 2 Chinese "Chop-Suey" place on Yonge Street), this map of NorthYorkCentre would have been covered in Blue (like Oshawa)! 20 years ago they started allowing high-density condo developments right on Yonge Street (EmpressWalk) then Avondale condo community about 15 years ago,.... and since then, real estate prices in NorthYorkCentre for all segment of the market has consistently out-performed the rest of Toronto. This map shows a clear correlation between higher proportion of visible minorities (mainly Korean, Persian and Chinese) moving into the area and the area's strong real estate price increase; often moving into the high-density condo first and (since many like the area) then into the surrounding single residential houses area. In the above map, you can literally see the Red (Asian) "bleed" (almost block by block!) from the high-density condos on Yonge into the single residential house area west of Yonge, between YorkCememtery and FinchHydroCorridor; where single residential house area between Beecroft Rd and Senlac Rd is basically evenly split between Red (Asian) and Blue (White) but area west of Senlac Rd is still predominately Blue (White) with a quarter sprinkling of Red (Asian).

Obviously, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what will happen to the area's real estate prices when these visible minorities (mainly Korean, Persian and Chinese) get "pushed out",... as they follow their visible minority (mainly Korean, Persian and Chinese) retailers and restaurants who get "pushed out" first,....
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...-concerned-about-bloor-bike-lanes-impact.html
http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=a331edb9b72d3510VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD


Why is SheppardCentreMall on east-side of Yonge Street becoming more generic when their side of Yonge Street has a relatively more ethnic demographic (Asian attracted to better school district)? Likewise, why is EmeraldPark Mall on west-side of Yonge Street becoming more ethnic when their side of Yonge Street has a relatively less ethnic demographic? Thus, maybe EmeraldPark Mall should have became the more generic non-ethnic mall,... and SheppardCenter Mall should have became the ethnic mall! Imagine SheppardCentre Mall replacing upper floor LA-Fitness & Longos for a Loblaw's T&T Chinese supermarket or Korean Galleria supermarket or Perian Adonis supermarket,... and converting its retail space into a PacificMall format full of various ethnic retail stores and restaurants serving authentic Chinese Dim-Sum and authentic Korean BBQ restaurants and authentic Persian Shish-KaBob,.... so that SheppardCentre Mall becomes more representative of the area's ethnicity.... but instead RioCan likes being mainstream and generic,....
 

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As a minority who has lived in this neighborhood for years, it's sad to see arguments for further ethic division.

I understand your stats and your logic is sound, but it would be nice to just, for once, look past the ethnicity label and focus on design and utility.

I look forward to your long past arguing against me.
 
This isn't the 1980s. If I like a Korean or Pakistani restaurant, I don't need it to be in some cool ethnic neighborhood. I just want lunch. Let the market decide where retail goes.
 
A mall for everyone?,.... tough to do that when SheppardCentre Mall management-owners "pushes out" the small ethnic mom&pop retailers,...
[....]

TL;DR.

The homogenization of shopping malls is not a new thing. Most large landlords have adopted a dull, uninspired, overly-safe approach to tenanting (and mall improvements, for that matter) which meets short-term balance sheet needs by filling space with known entities. I think it's going to come back and bite a number of them in the ass over time. The competition out there is fierce. Bricks-and-mortar retailers are no longer the only game in town, and shopping malls that don't entice consumers, that do not offer a sense of place, and that do not create a destination with unique and interesting options, will struggle to compete.

Anyway, that's my guess.
 

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