Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

Ignoring municipal boundaries and existing proposals, looking just at what exists along Yonge now and being creative with possible options would suggest Clark as the best place to terminate the Yonge line and begin some other line that runs up to Newmarket. The area's development peters out north of Clark and it is also an ideal place to funnel YRT buses to, but there's also a rail line at Clark that could be used in the future by GO.

But that's not reality. The reality is that the transit line is getting built up at Hwy 7. There's also a massive amount of development planned around Hwy 7. Because of this, it would be incredibly stupid to not extend it to Hwy 7. York Region is saying, "This is our breakpoint. This is our threshold." And that's where Yonge needs to go.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
Ignoring municipal boundaries and existing proposals, looking just at what exists along Yonge now and being creative with possible options would suggest Clark as the best place to terminate the Yonge line and begin some other line that runs up to Newmarket. The area's development peters out north of Clark and it is also an ideal place to funnel YRT buses to, but there's also a rail line at Clark that could be used in the future by GO.
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Yeah, you've got it.

Even if you ignore the planned Langstaff/RHC communities AND the planned 407 Transitway (and those are major caveats to ignore), you still have major E-W transit on the Viva Hwy. 7 route AND the GO line. Why on earth would you stop a subway just 2km short of what's already an obvious transit node? Once you include those caveats (ie the fact that in a decade or two it will be perhaps the biggest transit node in the GTA save Union Station) it's a no-brainer.

That said, this York Region report suggests Metrolinx is at least doing an analysis of a phased option, taking the subway up to Steeles, for starters.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
Yeah, you've got it.

Even if you ignore the planned Langstaff/RHC communities AND the planned 407 Transitway (and those are major caveats to ignore), you still have major E-W transit on the Viva Hwy. 7 route AND the GO line. Why on earth would you stop a subway just 2km short of what's already an obvious transit node? Once you include those caveats (ie the fact that in a decade or two it will be perhaps the biggest transit node in the GTA save Union Station) it's a no-brainer.

That said, this York Region report suggests Metrolinx is at least doing an analysis of a phased option, taking the subway up to Steeles, for starters.
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I remember even in the original public meetings (I attended one) for this extension, they had mentioned a phased introduction as a possibility. They even had the foresight to leave the door open to further extension beyond Hwy 7 to 16th Ave or Major Mac in another phased iteration a few years down the road. Meaning, they weren't going to be short-sighted and design it to permanently stop at Hwy 7.

For all the planning and research they did in such a short amount of time, it's a shame the funding just didn't come. By the time it does, they'll probably have to redo some of those reports. This line could have been ready to go by 2016.
 
xtremesniper said:
I remember even in the original public meetings (I attended one) for this extension, they had mentioned a phased introduction as a possibility. They even had the foresight to leave the door open to further extension beyond Hwy 7 to 16th Ave or Major Mac in another phased iteration a few years down the road. Meaning, they weren't going to be short-sighted and design it to permanently stop at Hwy 7.

For all the planning and research they did in such a short amount of time, it's a shame the funding just didn't come. By the time it does, they'll probably have to redo some of those reports. This line could have been ready to go by 2016.
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It truly is a shame. Ironically the ONE project in all of Toronto that everybody agrees is needed, but it cannot be built because it would be TOO successful haha catch 22.
 
BMO said:
It truly is a shame. Ironically the ONE project in all of Toronto that everybody agrees is needed, but it cannot be built because it would be TOO successful haha catch 22.
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Are you talking about this project? Because the studies predicted a peak point volume north of Steeles at around what Sheppard pulls in. That's a recipe for huge losses. I don't think "successful" is the proper way to describe it if dollars and ridership are going to be any one of the key indicators.

BTW why not extend it all the way to the Walmart Supercentre at Upper Canada Mall?
 
Paleo said:
Are you talking about this project? Because the studies predicted a peak point volume north of Steeles at around what Sheppard pulls in. That's a recipe for huge losses. I don't think "successful" is the proper way to describe it if dollars and ridership are going to be any one of the key indicators.

BTW why not extend it all the way to the Walmart Supercentre at Upper Canada Mall?
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So we can't extend Yonge north of Steeles because it is theoretically possible to extend it to Newmarket. What a stupid argument. Let's extend it to Moosonee, then, if we're unable to stop it anywhere other than the north side of whichever map we're looking at.

BTW, why are you so preoccupied with Sheppard? You do realize that every time you or downtowners or NDPers or light fail fans or transit geeks or Steve Munro talk about Sheppard, even if it's just to say how HORRIBLE it is, all you're doing is keeping attention focused on it, right? Ignore it and it might go away...out of sight, out of mind probably applies to Rob Ford's consciousness. Or try using all this effort to drum up support for a different project in a different corridor. If 1/10th the effort expended screaming about Sheppard was spent on the DRL or a Wilson/Albion LRT line or fare integration or anything else, we might be a lot further along with different projects.
 
Paleo said:
Are you talking about this project? Because the studies predicted a peak point volume north of Steeles at around what Sheppard pulls in. That's a recipe for huge losses. I don't think "successful" is the proper way to describe it if dollars and ridership are going to be any one of the key indicators.

BTW why not extend it all the way to the Walmart Supercentre at Upper Canada Mall?
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That's funny, because last time I heard anybody knock on this project, it's because it will add too many riders to the system and clog it, hence why TTC and many people on these forums say that Yonge should be built alongside a DRL.

Get back to me when you make your mind up whether it is a money loser, or attracts too many people.
 
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Do you guys know why Sheppard has low ridership? Because it starts and ends arbitrarily along a route that is predominantly bus oriented.

Yonge would extend an already busy line further north to the current transit terminus of York Region. To even compare the two is an exercise in stupidity.

Besides, these "estimates" for future ridership are always wrong because they don't consider that the future of the growth of this region is hardly consistent or predictable, and if efficient transit is built, the mindset of the typical driver in York Region may be swayed in ways that no report can "guesstimate". So I call BS on those reports 9 times out of 10. It's a potential guideline, not a reality.
 
I don't get this. Is this not what GO is for - commuting? Not to take the subway pass the city borders. And then there are those that will say there are no borders. There are. It ends at Steeles and GO should be to bring people into Toronto. If there is money to extend Yonge line past Steeles then there is money to build subways in Toronto south of Steeles.
 
The Yonge line is operating at capacity right now. So even if the extension were uber successful there wouldn't be much room to put the new riders
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
The Yonge line is operating at capacity right now. So even if the extension were uber successful there wouldn't be much room to put the new riders
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I think the real issue is there wouldnt be any place to put the existing riders from say Eglinton south as the new riders will have plenty of space north of Steeles. Extending this line outside of the City, without providing an alternative in the east (DRL, better GO connections in the City, etc.) will negatively effect riders within the City.

I've said it before, I support this extension, but only after we reduce the volume on the central part of the line by any means.
 
Sure, a lot of people during the morning rush are going to use the extension to go all the way downtown, but I can tell you that there are plenty of people who simply want to get from Richmond Hill to Finch or Sheppard. A lot of jobs have moved north in these past few years, so GO's mentality of "EVERYONE! GO TO UNION!" in the morning and "OKAY NOW GET OUT OF DOWNTOWN!" in the evening is quickly becoming an outdated methodology. And also slightly annoying.

Heck, I know a lot of people who live in Toronto but work in Markham. Guess what? They have to drive because GO only ever goes in the opposite direction.

Don't count out the people who simply want rapid transit without ever touching the downtown core.
 
GO has buses that run counter-peak. Many times they're faster than the trains that they serve as a substitute for.

Can I count out people who refuse to consider buses as an option?
 
TransitPolicyChanger said:
I think the real issue is there wouldnt be any place to put the existing riders from say Eglinton south as the new riders will have plenty of space north of Steeles. Extending this line outside of the City, without providing an alternative in the east (DRL, better GO connections in the City, etc.) will negatively effect riders within the City.

I've said it before, I support this extension, but only after we reduce the volume on the central part of the line by any means.
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In other words the line is over capacity at it's peak point. I know I could have clarified my statement better however I thought it is fairly obvious that riders would (should) be able to find an empty train when boarding at, say, RHC. However the line cannot absorb the increased ridership (at it's peak point) whatever that increase is.

I agree the DRL should be job #1 in Toronto.

xtremesniper said:
Sure, a lot of people during the morning rush are going to use the extension to go all the way downtown, but I can tell you that there are plenty of people who simply want to get from Richmond Hill to Finch or Sheppard. A lot of jobs have moved north in these past few years, so GO's mentality of "EVERYONE! GO TO UNION!" in the morning and "OKAY NOW GET OUT OF DOWNTOWN!" in the evening is quickly becoming an outdated methodology. And also slightly annoying.

Heck, I know a lot of people who live in Toronto but work in Markham. Guess what? They have to drive because GO only ever goes in the opposite direction.

Don't count out the people who simply want rapid transit without ever touching the downtown core.
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And yet everything York/Vaughan does to promote the subway extension is "single seat ride to downtown", and not "single seat ride to North York Centre". Even developers are marketing new condos this way. Therefore it is clear to me that planners view the subway extension as a route to the downtown core and any connectivity to any other nodes (NYCC, Y&E) is only secondary.
 
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Paleo said:
Are you talking about this project? Because the studies predicted a peak point volume north of Steeles at around what Sheppard pulls in. That's a recipe for huge losses. I don't think "successful" is the proper way to describe it if dollars and ridership are going to be any one of the key indicators.
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Subway lines are built because at some point along that corridor, ridership is forecast to meet the minimum required threshold to justify subway infrastructure. Peak ridership near the ends of a subway line will always be lower than along the busiest point.

If transit along Yonge was to perfectly match demand, there would be a quad track subway from King to Bloor, 2 track subway from Bloor to Sheppard, LRT from Sheppard to Steeles, BRT from Steeles to Major Mackenzie, and regular buses north to Newmarket. Is that what you want?

Planners have to use foresight when building new transit lines. They might say that in regions where population and population density are already growing quickly, we should
take the plunge now and extend the subway a little farther than needed today, to save us from capacity constraints in the not too distant future.
 
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