LemonCondo
Active Member
I want someone to answer these questions clearly and concisely: if there is no elevator operator on board the elevator, how does an automated elevator conduct an evacuation in the event of a breakdown or fire?
Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
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Bureaucromancer
Active Member
What even is the standard you're asking for? We're now approaching 40 years of safe uncrewed operation in Canada alone. This is presumptively unsafe because?
T3G
Senior Member
That wasn't the question. The SkyTrain has so far had a pretty good safety record, yes. My question is: what if something unsafe did happen? What is their SOP for dealing with the variety of scenarios I outlined?
"just trust me bro" is not an answer.
lexaprofessional
New Member
I mean if you said the same thing about shipbuilding today it would literally be 100% true. we have nuclear reactors on ships now. Radar, sonar, and weather detection systems have made it 100% impossible for a sophisticated vessel to not be aware of any storm systems or large objects in their vicinity. Making a fuss about driverless trains (when grade-separated) is comparable to anti-nuclear fear mongering in my opinion. Harmful, uninformed thought processes that ignore evidence make all of us poorer and more insecure. Germany and the UK are a poster child for this at the moment. Making decisions based on irrational fear or anger (nuclear phaseout, Brexit) will measurably harm your economy and the wellbeing of your populace. Sometimes, we shouldn't be asking plumbers or retail workers to determine national energy policy or have retirees dictate complex transport projects. (also wearing a helmet while cycling is most definitely useless if you are over 18 and on a public road)
asey20
New Member
I don't necessarily disagree with you on the aspect that it would be a nice have to have someone onboard that could help assist passengers in case of emergencies. However, I do believe that majority of accidents that happen when flying planes occur due to pilot error rather then when an airplane is on autopilot. I'm sure it is also the case that trains have emergency issues due to operator error or neglect in maintenance rather than due to trains running automatically. And of course, as we all know, the vast majority of car accidents are by operator error as well. So while your ask is relatively reasonable in having an attendant on board, the quote you used in your prior message makes it sound like something will go wrong or that automation is less safe than manually operated trains or automated trains with attendants on it (Not like the attendant would be able to anything to stop an accident from happening when it is already happening in most cases).Ah, my favourite UrbanToronto line of argument. Someone questions some commonly accepted line of thinking, such as light metro being the unquestionably best tech for the OL, that we need to build expensive subways everywhere, or that automation everywhere is an unquestionable benefit for our civilization, and rather than meaningfully engaging with the discussion, the person is called irrational, behind the times, etc. I certainly don't think there is any shame in being hesitant to unquestionably accept a new technology (or at least there shouldn't be) just because our overlords, who as we all know from careful reading of history are a generous and kind demographic of people who always have our best interests and well being at heart, foisted it upon us and assured us it's safe.
If wanting someone trained in evacuation procedures, emergency evacuations, and who can contact the authorities clearly and accurately on my trains is irrational or paranoid, then wearing seatbelts, locking your house at night, keeping computer backups, looking both ways before crossing the street, wearing hi-vis clothing in the dark, having a first aid kit, wearing a helmet while biking, having Two Factor Authentication, or having emergency contacts must also be irrational and paranoid. I have found in my life that I have not really needed to do any of these things up until this point, but I still do them, because it only takes one misadventure for the decision to do these things to pay off.
I want someone to answer these questions clearly and concisely: if there is no employee on board the train, how does an automated metro conduct an evacuation in the event of a derailment or fire? How does the general public know where to go, or how to avoid debris on the track bed? What about if police or paramedic intervention is required? In a dark tunnel, everything looks the same and no one knows where they are (or even what happened). How does anyone know where they are or how to get help? And no, meaningless platitudes about how the metro systems are safe don't mean a thing. Everything is safe, until it's suddenly not. Of course, the wikipedia article on automatic train operation doesn't mention anything about safety.
So far I have voiced several pressing concerns with automated trains in this thread and I've not had a single one of them refuted, but at least I can rest assured in the knowledge that I am paranoid and behind the times. Stellar debating, I am so much more knowledgeable and in step with the times now
I also partially disagree with having attendants on board as well. We have a lot of advanced technology at our disposal. AIrlines have been providing safety videos at the beginning of flights for decades now instructing what to do in certain emergency situations. It is completely reasonable to have this information available on a train that would be displayed on the screens in the case of a detected emergency. It doesn't even need to be that advanced. It could literally just be on an ad space or a pamphlet hanging on the wall. Instructions stuck onto the wall are sufficient as well. There is also no third rail in this case to get electrocuted by once you are walking on the tracks to the next station.
lexaprofessional
New Member
LemonCondo
Active Member
- Train stops due to emergency
- Lights in tunnel automatically turn on
- Person at operational headquarters instructs passengers over intercom to open the emergency door and walk to nearest emergency exit
afransen
Senior Member
It is irrational to say "I don't care about proven safety track record in dozens of systems across countless operating hours, I don't trust it." If you take that stance, you shouldn't trust anything.Ah, my favourite UrbanToronto line of argument. Someone questions some commonly accepted line of thinking, such as light metro being the unquestionably best tech for the OL, that we need to build expensive subways everywhere, or that automation everywhere is an unquestionable benefit for our civilization, and rather than meaningfully engaging with the discussion, the person is called irrational, behind the times, etc. I certainly don't think there is any shame in being hesitant to unquestionably accept a new technology (or at least there shouldn't be) just because our overlords, who as we all know from careful reading of history are a generous and kind demographic of people who always have our best interests and well being at heart, foisted it upon us and assured us it's safe.
If wanting someone trained in evacuation procedures, emergency evacuations, and who can contact the authorities clearly and accurately on my trains is irrational or paranoid, then wearing seatbelts, locking your house at night, keeping computer backups, looking both ways before crossing the street, wearing hi-vis clothing in the dark, having a first aid kit, wearing a helmet while biking, having Two Factor Authentication, or having emergency contacts must also be irrational and paranoid. I have found in my life that I have not really needed to do any of these things up until this point, but I still do them, because it only takes one misadventure for the decision to do these things to pay off.
I want someone to answer these questions clearly and concisely: if there is no employee on board the train, how does an automated metro conduct an evacuation in the event of a derailment or fire? How does the general public know where to go, or how to avoid debris on the track bed? What about if police or paramedic intervention is required? In a dark tunnel, everything looks the same and no one knows where they are (or even what happened). How does anyone know where they are or how to get help? And no, meaningless platitudes about how the metro systems are safe don't mean a thing. Everything is safe, until it's suddenly not. Of course, the wikipedia article on automatic train operation doesn't mention anything about safety.
So far I have voiced several pressing concerns with automated trains in this thread and I've not had a single one of them refuted, but at least I can rest assured in the knowledge that I am paranoid and behind the times. Stellar debating, I am so much more knowledgeable and in step with the times now
lenaitch
Senior Member
Storm systems writ large perhaps but actual weather condition prediction is still an inexact science. Rogue waves are a particular issue that is so far unpredictable. Besides, knowing and 'doing something about' do not always go hand-in-hand. Judgement, experience, cost, profit, risk, etc. all come into play.
Do you think society is ready for attendant-less aircraft? I realize you are not trying to draw a direct parallel, but I suppose some of the argument of automated trains could apply. Most modern commercial aircraft and major airports have the technology to take-off, fly and land on automation. Ground attendants could load the plane but stay at the terminal? Once you are locked in, the safety brochure/video is sufficient, right? There must be oodles of instances where emergency procedures and evacuation were properly handled by passengers alone. On the vast majority of flights, the only thing that would be lost is beverage and snack service.
Northern Light
Superstar
I'm not really sure why all of the above is in this particular thread......
Be that as it may; perhaps people on both sides of the argument could offer more facts, and less exasperation.
From: https://www.translink.ca/rider-guide/safety-and-security
SkyTrains are monitored by customer service and security staff during operational hours. We have the following added security measures on SkyTrain:
Also, there was an evacuation of SkyTrain in 2015, which seemingly could have gone better:
www.peacearchnews.com
And one prior to that in 2014 as well:
vancouversun.com
I actually tried to find the S.O.P for evacuation on Sky Train out of curiousity, I assume one was developed in light of the earlier incidences, but I couldn't find it in a cursory search.
****
Note that I am pro-automation; but I do think its a valid concern to ask about the S.O.P for emergency response, and worthy of a better response than mere indignation.
Be that as it may; perhaps people on both sides of the argument could offer more facts, and less exasperation.
From: https://www.translink.ca/rider-guide/safety-and-security
SkyTrains are monitored by customer service and security staff during operational hours. We have the following added security measures on SkyTrain:
- The passenger silent alarm is a yellow strip above every window. When pushed, staff will be silently alerted to a problem. Help will be on the scene as soon as possible.
- Speakerphones to talk to SkyTrain control operators are located inside each car near the doors, so passengers can ask for urgent assistance.
Also, there was an evacuation of SkyTrain in 2015, which seemingly could have gone better:
SkyTrain emergency evacuation speed questioned - Peace Arch News
Belcarra mayor urges review of crisis response on Metro Vancouver's rapid transit system after December fire
www.peacearchnews.com
And one prior to that in 2014 as well:
The SkyTrain system is safe, TransLink CEO says
TransLink’s board of directors was negligent in not ensuring that the transportation authority was prepared to handle a pair of SkyTrain shutdowns that…
vancouversun.com
I actually tried to find the S.O.P for evacuation on Sky Train out of curiousity, I assume one was developed in light of the earlier incidences, but I couldn't find it in a cursory search.
****
Note that I am pro-automation; but I do think its a valid concern to ask about the S.O.P for emergency response, and worthy of a better response than mere indignation.
asey20
New Member
Despite never saying that we are ready for attendant-less aircraft, the stakes are much higher in an aircraft than in a train. For example, there is almost no scenario where trains will need to evacuate in water. Plane fights are generally longer on average than the average train ride. For long-distance trains it makes absolute sense having attendants (to service drinks and snacks, as well as being there in emergency circumstances). However, on a train in a large metro area like Toronto? Well its not like the train will be derailing in the middle of nowhere as it could be with VIA rail or even GO. Emergency services would likely be able to reach the trains in a reasonable amount of time as well.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Eventually having much less staff on an airliner will be possible. Right now you need two pilots (control redundancy) and a certain ratio of flight attendants to passengers (to be able to ensure evacuation in a certain time frame due to fire). If you create a highly redundant and trustworthy flight computer and eliminate the risks of fire then the same level of (low) risk can exist with less staff.
MrGoose
Active Member
In ye olden days, nearly everyone worked on the farm as a subsidence farmer. The mechanization of agriculture, such that only 2% of all laborers could be easily seen by pre-industrial farmers as "throwing everyone out of work"
We don't have to trust the general public to do that themselves. Thats what emergency services and intercoms are for. Thats what signs and tunnel lights are for.
This line of thinking is impossible to disprove and spurious.
1. You can't say "the safety records of automated transit systems don't impress me [because I foresee that they might have accidents in the future]". This is a proven safety record of the Skytrain. Hundreds of millions of riders, millions of operating hours per car since its inception and not a single death or injury from the automated train system.
The London DLR, 1 accident since inception in 1987 with no injuries (except shock).
Automated metros are 35 year old technology with very few incidents. At what point can I say that automated trains are safe and reliable?
2. The idea that the Titanic was "unsinkable" was pure marketing. The idea of the safety of automated trains is based on the FACT that dozens of these systems have operating for years, without incident.
That driverless metros are incredibly safe is to be expected. Trains are 1D transportation, they operate only on a fixed guideway and change directions at clearly defined locations. In fact, metro systems are the lowest hanging fruit for automation because of these facts. The fixed guideway means that external factors (like weather, people) are all eliminated as possible scenarios for the computer to handle. It also means that you can equip each vehicle and switch and the entire tunnel with sensors, giving you extensive and cheap coverage of the system so that the position of vehicles can be known at all times.
Undead
Senior Member
Can we take this to another thread?
mdu
Active Member
I was going to write a long comment, but I'll just say that
1. there's a very common trend of people online declaring that their city or their country is somehow so unique that they are an exception to something which works in the rest of the developed world, and that
2. I think it's a coping mechanism to reconcile between a belief in the superiority of Place X, with the reality that the rest of the world has something that they don't.
(see, americans and any form of public healthcare)
1. there's a very common trend of people online declaring that their city or their country is somehow so unique that they are an exception to something which works in the rest of the developed world, and that
2. I think it's a coping mechanism to reconcile between a belief in the superiority of Place X, with the reality that the rest of the world has something that they don't.
(see, americans and any form of public healthcare)