Agreed entirely, but wow, that is one of the most infuriatingly “Toronto public meeting” statements I’ve heard. With a definite emphasis on the very IDEA of it somehow totally discrediting whoever suggested it with a dash of considering the idea actually offensive.
Yeah, I get it, superficially. But since we know 416 people and 905 people cross borders all the time - in cars, buses, trains etc - the anger should be directed to a system that doesn't recognize that, instead of a "Well, it's MY transit system!" attitude. I once heard a prominent Toronto planner talking about Regional Riders as if they're a different species. Someone who walks to catch a bus to Finch from Willowdale or Thornhill is a TTC rider, regardless. Fare integration is another UT thread so I won't go on at length here but it's long, long overdue and hopefully it will put an end the obsolete fiefdoms, like the transit agency's farebox-centred imagination of how people get around.
Well, okay, sure… I’m not sure where you expect this non sequitur to go. I/we’ve already discussed why it seems Cummer has been cut by Metrolinx, but I’ll bite. You yourself recognize that these “subsidies” on the subway network have nothing to do with building these stations, most of which are covered by YR. So right away, you have to acknowledge Cummer Station is not in any way tied to those ‘subsidies’ either, because it is a singular capital expense like the rest of the stations.I'm sorry? Do the regions around Toronto contribute to the TTC subways operations, capital projects such as Signal Upgrades, station upgrades, fleet etc., which directly enable these extensions to suburbia? Or are we supposed to bite the bullet like we already do maintaining highways mainly driven on by 905ers.If any station is getting cut it shouldn't be Cummer.
I don't think "regional fare integration" is an excellent answer to this at all. I think the reality is despite your best efforts here TJ, this is still seen as a vote buying project, and not an urban one. The Royal Orchard example exemplifies it. The stop was taken out for various reasons we won't get into here. Then put back by Ford and his team. Then the subway is moved because of a small graveyard. The YNSE is just the crown jewel in people thinking that York Region has too much say on transit. I mean the real reason why this is going through is because the Richmond Hill GO Line doesn't hit anywhere along the line the subway does. (Remember this extension was in the works prior to the condo boom). The frustration of Toronto residents is fair. This would be the second one, especially when Vaughan already got a subway, for all intents and purposes.
I’d argue this project has more merit than the TYSSE… at least north of Steeles there. My view is that this is being treated as urgent because of politics, but it is needed in any case. I think that stations like Steeles and Langstaff will be immensely useful in setting up York Region for success in building a real transit network. Not sure if this should be taking priority over other plans, though.
Yeah - but the people in Toronto do pay more as well through the city portion of fleet renewal. Since you don’t seem concerned about regional boundaries when it comes to service, it seems right for the residents of York Region to pitch in extra as well for the capital costs of upgrading the TTC fleet - part of which will serve them, after all.
It is, to a point, which is addressing the long-term complaint that YR residents don't contribute to TTC operations. They do when they pay fares, of course. And given the TTC's poor taxpayer subsidy that means, they pay a not-inconsequential percentage already. And I have no problem with someone saying that if the TTC is going to YR, they should pay their "fair share" and hopefully fare integration will help with this. In the meantime, there was already a co-mingling of capital/operating in the original complaint that needs to be separated.
Agreed. This, no one can dispute.
I’ve talked about why I think the merits of Cummer aren’t fully present already, but I’ll give you the gist.
It's 1.8 km from the pick up/drop off to Steeles. I don't think 900 metres (without even considering the distance from Yonge) is walking distance.
The benefit of having a mid-block station I think is the crux of the issue here. You could justify one at a high level, but as we are discussing, the specifics don’t fully pan out. Cummer is too far south to be “mid-block” but it’s the only place you could justify one if your trying to be on a perpendicular bus line. Patricia would be decent if Cummer buses could get there easily, but It likely would have cost issues too.
Very well said. I didn’t want to take a policy/planning angle because I figured people could just say “the policies are le bad” but it’s the most concrete explanation for a lot of this. Not sure if this counts as an addition, but the efforts of the growth plan have slowly been coming to fruition in the 905 for the last decade or so. This new reality is unfolding before us, and VMC is perhaps the best place to go to understand it’s vision for now.This is all kind of old ground to go over and no one here - least of all me - is going to suggest this, or any other transit decision we've seen in the past 30 years, was made based on objective data, free of politics. I don't think people at Cummer (85% of whom will still be within walking distance of Steeles or Finch) are getting significantly screwed over but, as I've also said, I generally agree that both Cummer and RO are borderline stations but given my choice, I'd have opted for Cummer. But it doesn't change that YR is paying $ for its stations and Toronto is not. If Toronto wants to pay for Cummer, Toronto can pay for it. I don't think it's a priority for them and that is not anyone else's fault, regardless of the merits or lack thereof at Royal Orchard.
But to also reiterate:
-All of Canada and Ontario pay for TTC's fleet, as you can see by the stickers on the trains.
-I have no problem with the idea YR residents, in particular, should pay more to TTC. It's a failure of governance, not a reason to punish people who want to use transit. I hope the new fare system will be more equitable in this regard.
It is, to a point, which is addressing the long-term complaint that YR residents don't contribute to TTC operations. They do when they pay fares, of course. And given the TTC's poor taxpayer subsidy that means, they pay a not-inconsequential percentage already. And I have no problem with someone saying that if the TTC is going to YR, they should pay their "fair share" and hopefully fare integration will help with this. In the meantime, there was already a co-mingling of capital/operating in the original complaint that needs to be separated.
Well, yes and yes - but, in fairness, it's a very large cemetery (145 acres) owned by the Catholic church, which is not a "small graveyard." but I certainly otherwise take your general point.
Just because indvidual decisions are political doesn't mean the final product is not necesary or justifiable (see also: Ontario Line).
Here I disagree. That's not the "real reason." The real reason - which many still find difficult to accept - is to enable massive suburban intensification in a key node, the plans for which go back concretely more than 15 years now and, really, another 10 or 15 years prior to that. I don't really care whether Toronto residents are frustrated because they don't understand the Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe. I'm not going to roll my eyes for the umpteenth time when I hear David Miller opining that RH residents really would be best served by the (not viable) GO improvements when he and I both know that he probaly hasn't been within 10km of Silver City Richmond in his life, much less reviewed the (pre-MZO) Langstaff Gateway Secondary Plan. Objectively, that position is simply wrong and (speaking to what I've heard him say, not you) is ignorant of intensification patterns and plans as well as how people in south York Region travel and use transit.
As for Vaughan "already getting a subway," it's 2.5 stops on the opposite side of the municpality and, again, Torontonians can be frustrated if they're ignorant of growth in the 905 but I'd suggest they should be far more concerned about their own declining inner suburban population, how they've messed up transit in Scarborough (which will become VERY clear before the end of the year), how they're wasting money on SmartTrack and the Gardiner, and a half dozen other transit/growth-related issues before dwelling unduly on how "their" infrastructure is allowing for less auto-centric development in their suburban neighbours. IMHO.
Agreed. This, no one can dispute.
That's about what I got as a measurement. 550 metres to Cummer. Another 1250 metres to Steeles for a 1.8 km gap. But Cummer to the half-way point (about Princess) is only another 350 metres.
That’s an interesting way to set it up. I sometimes forget how long subway platforms are, and that by adjusting the configuration you can give more coverage than just stating “station here”. I agree that if Cummer Station was north of Cummer, the case gets a bit stronger. I can’t really say if this makes it viable overall now, but I leave that to the City to decide. Glad you found a way to mitigate what I saw as a major issue; shows you can’t completely rule Cummer as viable without exploring options like this.
It does get interesting. Looking at some recent deeper examples, the distance from the north entrance (north of Steeles) to the south entrance (Howard Moscoe Way) of Pioneer Village station is almost 350 metres! The south entrance of Vaughan Centre station (at the Viva station in the middle of 7) to the middle of the bus terminal is over 350 metres. Even a shallow station like Greenwood will have about 220 metres between the current Linsmore exit to the proposed Monarch Park exit. I've seen almost 500 metres in Seoul (you do want to stop and make sure you have the correct exit!)