Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[chrisw]

To conclude: It's not that Cummer doesn't deserve a station or that.no one would use it if were built. It's that too many circumstances conspire against it making sense at this point. (A TOC at Steeles could be used to justify Cummer but it would have to happen soon and as far as we know, there isn't one in place so back to square one).

The motion did mention that a lot of development is being built at Steeles. There's a secondary plan with lots of upzoning. Centrepoint mall development will be big. Significantly more proceeds from tocs at Steeles station in the coming years.

The Province of Ontario fully funded Steeles Station and agreed to allocate the proceeds from transit-oriented community charges for developments surrounding the proposed Cummer Station to the City of Toronto. However, due to extensive existing development approvals, there won’t be sufficient funds flowing from these charges to fund an entire new subway station. Development surrounding Steeles Station is however at a much earlier stage and there are expected to be significantly more proceeds from transit-oriented communities available in coming years to fund Steeles Station. The Province of Ontario has many remaining opportunities to recover costs through transit-oriented communities along Yonge Street from the proposed Cummer Station towards Yonge/Steeles.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

As Cummer has been up in the air and apparently no final decision made yet, it seems reasonable to speculate Metrolinx has so far been future-proofing for it. I'd give them benefit of the doubt they would continue to do so, as long as it's not a huge funding impact (which it seems it shouldn't be if the deign to date can accommodate the station).

TOCs are only at the station site itself. There could still be TOC deals at Steeles but there is no way to know if there will be one, several or none. The secondary plan doesn't really change the calculus there as the Province can override policy anyway (as they did at Bridge and HT) but the possibility does remain. The possibility is not enough to front Toronto $500m, though.

 

[Sunnyside]

Part of the motion asks for Metrolinx to do that as part of the procurement (from the Star article: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/to...cle_9dd77cee-2a27-5008-bc26-c380ffc1eef4.html)

I’m ignorantly and naively assuming it costs $$$ to do this, and unless someone stumps up the money, Metrolinx won’t do this by default.

This is coming from someone with no experience or knowledge about this, but… generally it does seem engineers leave provisions for basically any potential future projects if they can. At least, that’s best practice AFAIK. It’s always something that gets “caught” during the engineering design process, outside of planning it seems- the degree of those accommodations might be dependant on money, but I’m sure if they can tweak something in a very minor way to allow Cummer to be built in the future, they will. As a deep bore station it’s not like it’ll be any harder to build either way, imho. The only real cost with protecting for a station would likely be to buy land for where it would go.

So while a bit baseless, I have confidence they can build the station at a later date if it’s on peoples mind during construction. I’ve stated my opinion on the matter of Cummer, but it mostly boils down to what @TJ O'Pootertoot said above.

 

[innsertnamehere]

thats a completely separate topic but this is very intentionally misleading.
Ive seen this repeated and its kinda annoying actually
theres a massive difference when your population is 6 million vs 170,000 (Oshawa)
you cant just take the average house price. As we know on urbantoronto 1 single building has 400 units...with all of them paying the same amount of property tax.

thats the equivalent of like 200 detached homes in Oshawa.

Yes Toronto has a budget crisis but nothing that cant be solved by a very small tax increase. which will end up being like 10% of 0.61% or effectively 7300. still at 30th place

I will also mention as you might know Toronto has the Gardiner and DVP to maintain for the people of the GTA who dont pay taxes to Toronto to pay for it.

yes - But Toronto has relatively high median household incomes and very low per-household taxes. It can easily afford more and it's not fair for them to ask the Feds and Province to bail them out just because they went 15 years with below-inflation tax increases.

Toronto may have the Gardiner and DVP - but you know what Windsor has? The E.C. Row Expressway. Hamilton has the Linc and RHVP. Ottawa has Highway 174. Toronto isn't the only one which owns and maintains what is effectively provincial transportation infrastructure - Hamilton's highways especially arguably play a larger provincial (and indeed international - it's the fastest way to drive from Michigan to the US East Coast) role than Torontos, which ultimately almost exlusively serve trips which start or end in the City of Toronto, unlike Hamilton's.

Ultimately, if you have a home budget of $700k in Toronto, you will end up paying a fraction of the property tax that you would pay almost anywhere else in the province, even combining other fees. Toronto ain't broke - it just likes to pretend that it is. And the rest of the province sees right through the ridiculous pleas to upper levels of government for cash when other municipalities are just dealing with similar financial problems without complaining.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Regarding future proofing - IIRC doing this requires them to install the shoring piles in advance of tunnelling, and that's about it. I don't imagine it would be *too* expensive.

Remember as well that Toronto has constructed an infill subway station before - just 2 stations south of the YSNE. North York Centre Station opened in 1987, 12 years after the completion of the subway line it is on.

 

[Northern Light]

yes - But Toronto has relatively high median household incomes and very low per-household taxes. It can easily afford more and it's not fair for them to ask the Feds and Province to bail them out just because they went 15 years with below-inflation tax increases.

Toronto may have the Gardiner and DVP - but you know what Windsor has? The E.C. Row Expressway. Hamilton has the Linc and RHVP. Ottawa has Highway 174. Toronto isn't the only one which owns and maintains what is effectively provincial transportation infrastructure - Hamilton's highways especially arguably play a larger provincial (and indeed international - it's the fastest way to drive from Michigan to the US East Coast) role than Torontos, which ultimately almost exlusively serve trips which start or end in the City of Toronto, unlike Hamilton's.

Ultimately, if you have a home budget of $700k in Toronto, you will end up paying a fraction of the property tax that you would pay almost anywhere else in the province, even combining other fees. Toronto ain't broke - it just likes to pretend that it is. And the rest of the province sees right through the ridiculous pleas to upper levels of government for cash when other municipalities are just dealing with similar financial problems without complaining.

Toronto business and multi-res taxes are generally higher than elsewhere, when these are lower and SFH taxes raised to offset that lowering the difference is not as large as you imagine.

Also, PS, household incomes are lower in the City of Toronto than the surrounding GTA

York Region's median household income was $112,000 in 2016 vs The City of Toronto at a mere $84,000

Brampton sat at over $87,000 in 2016; while Oakville was $113,000 and change and Burlington $93,000

This idea that the average Torontonian is just loaded with disposable income is a myth.

Again, I'm pro higher taxes in the City, but when I see stuff like this, which is born out of bias and misunderstanding rather than fact, its a problem.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Toronto business and multi-res taxes are generally higher than elsewhere, when these are lower and SFH taxes raised to offset that lowering the difference is not as large as you imagine.

Also, PS, household incomes are lower in the City of Toronto than the surrounding GTA

York Region's median household income was $112,000 in 2016 vs The City of Toronto at a mere $84,000

Brampton sat at over $87,000 in 2016; while Oakville was $113,000 and change and Burlington $93,000

This idea that the average Torontonian is just loaded with disposable income is a myth.

Again, I'm pro higher taxes in the City, but when I see stuff like this, which is born out of bias and misunderstanding rather than fact, its a problem.

Oakville has the highest median household income of any municipality in Canada.

Toronto is lower than I think most would expect, for sure, given that it's a place of disparities with some of the highest and lowest income census tracts in the country. It is higher than most areas outside of the GTA though - Windsor's median household income is $70,000 for example.

I don't disagree that things like the Gardiner, DVP, and homelessness services should be provincially operated and funded as they stem from issues or uses which extend well beyond Toronto's borders.. but at the end of the day Toronto has some of the lowest property taxes compared to median household incomes in the province, and it's not unique in having to shoulder provincial costs over other municipalities. Per Capita Hamilton probably handles an equal or even larger amount of social services and provincial infrastructure than Toronto does for example, with even higher commercial tax rates, and substantially higher median property taxes per residential household.

 

[81-717]

Toronto ain't broke - it just likes to pretend that it is. And the rest of the province sees right through the ridiculous pleas to upper levels of government for cash when other municipalities are just dealing with similar financial problems without complaining.

So that's why they never stepped up to fund the line 2 project eh?

 

[innsertnamehere]

So that's why they never stepped up to fund the line 2 project eh?

Tory at the time did the right thing and raised taxes to pay for the Line 2 extension. When the PCs took it over, that money was redirected and is paying for things like the Bloor-Yonge capacity expansion now.

Chow needs to do it again - increase property taxes to pay for capital projects. It's been done for the Scarborough Subway extension, and was also done to pay for the Spadina extension. Raising taxes to pay for Cummer would be a fraction of a percentage.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Also, PS, household incomes are lower in the City of Toronto than the surrounding GTA

Just a thought, not crucial to the argument — I would imagine this stat is partially skewed by the large share of single earner households in Toronto, eg. 1 bed and studio units. Surely this drags the number towards to the average individual income.

Would be interesting to explore more finely measured census data if it existed.

 

[Northern Light]

Just a thought, not crucial to the argument — I would imagine this stat is partially skewed by the large share of single earner households in Toronto, eg. 1 bed and studio units. Surely this drags the number towards to the average individual income.

Would be interesting to explore more finely measured census data if it existed.

That may well be true; of course, a one-person household generally has higher expenses per person than a person/dual-income household.

This is reflected specifically in housing, in the obvious way than a 1-bedroom apartment/condo is not 50% of the cost of a 2-bedroom.

So you still have a disposable income issue.

 

[81-717]

Tory at the time did the right thing and raised taxes to pay for the Line 2 extension. When the PCs took it over, that money was redirected and is paying for things like the Bloor-Yonge capacity expansion now.

Chow needs to do it again - increase property taxes to pay for capital projects. It's been done for the Scarborough Subway extension, and was also done to pay for the Spadina extension. Raising taxes to pay for Cummer would be a fraction of a percentage.

I was referring to the new fleet, which the city paid its share, but the province & feds failed to do so repeatedly, presumably because they "see right through the ridiculous pleas to upper levels of government for cash".

 

[nfitz]

Everyone feel sorry for Toronto city council. How could they possibly budget. Out of 35 cities in Ontario they have the lowest tax rate of all of them and the 4th from lowest tax. Toronto needs a bailout. Come on Windsor, pay more provincial and and federal tax so that the upper levels of government can bail Toronto out. Everyone knows Windsor is where people are driving around in BMWs and Mercedes while Torontonians drive around in rust buckets.

City	Avg Home	Home Rank	Tax Rate	Tax Rate Rank	Tax	Tax Rank
Caledon	$1,709,975	1	0.80%	24	$13,680	1
Windsor	$714,650	22	1.81%	1	$12,935	2
Whitby	$991,105	12	1.12%	17	$11,100	3
Oakville	$1,487,485	2	0.72%	30	$10,710	4
Pickering	$981,563	14	1.08%	21	$10,601	5
Ajax	$968,767	15	1.09%	19	$10,560	6
Orangeville	$783,615	18	1.33%	10	$10,422	7
Aurora	$1,363,412	3	0.76%	29	$10,362	8
Oshawa	$782,227	20	1.30%	11	$10,169	9
Peterborough	$693,871	26	1.44%	6	$9,992	10
Brampton	$1,003,263	11	0.96%	23	$9,631	11
Hamilton	$782,611	19	1.20%	14	$9,391	12
Guelph	$810,200	17	1.14%	16	$9,236	13
Newmarket	$1,124,974	7	0.79%	26	$8,887	14
Barrie	$729,500	21	1.21%	13	$8,827	15
London	$630,282	29	1.38%	8	$8,698	16
Kingston	$636,150	28	1.36%	9	$8,652	17
Richmond Hill	$1,317,247	4	0.65%	33	$8,562	17
Cambridge	$714,650	22	1.18%	15	$8,433	19
St. Catharines	$582,100	31	1.44%	6	$8,382	20
Niagara Falls	$640,000	27	1.30%	11	$8,320	21
Vaughan	$1,251,465	6	0.66%	32	$8,260	22
Burlington	$1,060,052	9	0.77%	28	$8,162	23
Markham	$1,282,561	5	0.63%	34	$8,080	24
Mississauga	$987,356	13	0.80%	24	$7,899	25
Kitchener	$714,650	22	1.10%	18	$7,861	26
Waterloo	$714,650	22	1.09%	19	$7,790	27
Halton Hills	$966,031	16	0.79%	26	$7,632	28
Milton	$1,031,770	10	0.68%	31	$7,016	29
Sudbury	$436,000	32	1.54%	5	$6,714	30
Toronto	$1,093,097	8	0.61%	35	$6,668	31
North Bay	$400,593	33	1.56%	4	$6,249	32
Ottawa	$624,003	30	1.00%	22	$6,240	33
Thunder Bay	$309,310	34	1.59%	2	$4,918	34
Sault Ste. Marie	$296,629	35	1.58%	3	$4,687	35

What's the source of those numbers? Toronto's looks completely wrong. Toronto's 2023 tax rate is 0.52% for residential. And the average tax is $3,600.

Meanwhile the media reported that a 4.48% increase in Windsor added $140 to the average tax bill. That makes the average Windsor tax bill $3,265 - not $12,935. And I'd assume that includes the province's 0.153% share - so that would put the average Windsor tax billl closer to $2,500.

Something is way squirrelly here - these numbers are massively wrong!

 

[EnviroTO]

T

What's the source of those numbers? Toronto's looks completely wrong. Toronto's 2023 tax rate is 0.52% for residential. And the average tax is $3,600.

The property tax rates are the combined tax rates from 2021: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/five-ont...highest-property-tax-rates-revealed-1.5660362

 

[Dr. Snoot]

For everyone's benefit, property tax rates are irrelevant. The amount of tax paid, which is the more relevant measure, depends on property valuation. Admittedly, Toronto's residential households pay less property tax than most Ontario municipalities.

However, I think it's important to question the premise that all municipalities across Ontario should have equal or even similar residential property taxes.

Population density per square kilometre: Source

Hamilton: 509 (Yes, it has a large downtown, but it has a massive area)
Oakville: 1,538
Toronto: 4,427

Proportion of single family homes: Source, Source

Hamilton: 56%
Oakville: 58%
Toronto: 39%

Population growth rates (2001-2021): Source

Hamilton: 16.1%
Oakville: 47.7%
Toronto: 12.6%

First, It seems fairly obvious that delivering basic services to Hamilton and Oakville residents, including building and maintaining roadways, sewers, collecting garbage, etc. will be much more expensive on a per capita basis than in Toronto due to lower population densities and a higher percentage of single family homes. A rapidly expanding population requires higher capital expenditures on new infrastructure. I am willing to bet that if you did a regression analysis, these would be strong predictive factors for property tax rates.

Second, the comparison depends on what services are delivered to residents and what expenditures may be required our of property tax revenues. As noted above, services like garbage collection in Toronto are billed separately from property taxes (to the tune of $430 million per year). High-rise buildings are required to contract for private garbage collection, which is charged to owners or tenants through condo fees or rent. On the other side, Toronto effectively subsidizes regional transit through the TTC's operating budget, maintains the largest shelter and supportive housing system in Canada, and manages by far the largest proportion of new immigrants and refugees.

Third, the comparison depends on what other fees and taxes are charged to businesses or residents. Toronto's commercial property tax ratio is among the highest in the province. Toronto is the only municipality in Ontario with a Land Transfer Tax (representing 5.9% of its total revenue, which if added to property taxes would increase them by 20%), a Municipal Accommodation Tax, a Third Party Sign Tax, and a Vacant Home Tax (recently increased from 1% to 3% of value). Finally, Toronto's development charges on new homes are among the highest in the province (Source).

All of this to say that comparing the residential property taxes among Ontario municipalities and saying Toronto households are undertaxed or advantaged is a facile position. It requires a detailed accounting of the factors listed above, which I am willing to bet would make the total taxes paid by Torontonians seem much fairer.

Ultimately, I believe Toronto has an obligation to increase its residential property taxes in an effort to pay for urgently needed services, but it's budget shortfall cannot realistically or fairly be made up by increased property taxes. The City needs better funding or revenue tools from other levels of government and the recognition that the situation is not comparable to other municipalities in Ontario.