Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[denfromoakvillemilton]

So they took these stations and caused commotion, only to put them back in to shut up the protesters. I just want Cummer back and this to be built.

Ideally, the station should be located north of Cummer/Drewry, closer to Connaught and Patricia. That would be nearly equidistant from Finch and Steeles, while Cummer is closer to Finch.

It would be really strange if they build Royal Orchard Stn, but nothing between Finch and Steeles. A "Cummer" or "Patricia" station can get 3x walk-in riders from the houses already there, compared to what Royal Orchard will get with any TOC in place.

Agreed Rainforest.

Oh don't worry, we still think the choice to have a 50m deep station is absolutely insane. However if its coming out of the developer's pocket and not necessarily the taxpayers... then its whatever.

The way things are done in the GTHA smh. I agree with this too.

I don't mind if they add Cummer (I'd have preferred it over Royal Orchard) but...
...one of the points they make in the Initial Business Case is that when you draw the 500m radii around Steeles and Finch, there are actually very few walk-ins who aren't already within walking distance of the other two stations. The M2M development is a prime example as it would obviously benefit from a Cummer Station, but also is pretty walkable from Finch.
I would also agree that the box should be shifted north, though that has the disadvantage of moving you further into the Steeles walkshed.

Overall, the full 6 stations seems like a bit of overkill but it may be what's necessary to make the extension both functional and politically palatable.

But we shouldn't have gone through this at all. If you're building this, all 6 stations needed to be built to justify it.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

But we shouldn't have gone through this at all. If you're building this, all 6 stations needed to be built to justify it.

I'm not against the 6 stations. I guess I kind of felt like if you have to cut one, it should be RO and if you have to cut 2 it should be RO and Cummer and, generally speaking, I liked how the new alignment (with or without the recent tweaks) managed to make the project viable by cutting what it needed to, to get within the new budget.

Then I guess it depends how cynical you want to be about the process but I think it went like this:
-original plan includes Yonge alignment and 6 stations
-revised plan has a fixed budget envelope and must change the alignment, scrap 2 stations and move another 2 above ground
-BUT the alignment is still being designed to allow for the full 6 stations, if $ can be found
-$ are then found via the TOC program, which obviously did not exist for the original plan and the deals for which (at Bridge and HT) were apparently not finalized until relatively recently, as was the alignment

Was that the plan all along...?

None of us are naive enough to assume politics doesn't filter through all of this. Of course it does. The mere fact York Region has gotten an "extra" station makes one think Toronto will get their "extra" station too, which yes, brings us back to where we started with 6 stations. So everyone gets to have their cake and eat it too: Markham gets its silly station and so do the residents who said (in a way), "If you're going to ruin our neighbourhood, the least you can do is give us a subway station!)"
The Province has kept Metrolinx within its funding envelope while also demonstrating how the TOC program can generate not just savings for taxpayers but enough savings to supersize the transit projects by realizing their full potential through new stations etc. etc.

If you're smacking your head at how it all went down, I won't say you're wrong!

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

If the election doesn't result in the City of Toronto receiving funding for a Cummer station, then I really hope they just place a TIF across the entire North York City Centre area extending north to Steeles and use it to finance the costs of the station.

 

[Undead]

They're never wrong that traffic is bad etc.
They just fail to grasp it's bad because the they themselves live in this.
View attachment 375811
2-3 cars in every garage, and they know it.

It would be naive to hope/think that these 2 new communities are going to be self-contained and everyone will bike and take transit and rainbows will cover them after every rainfall. But the residents who are complaining need to get that moving these people further north causes the same problem - worse, in fact, because there's no subway up on the moraine - and so this is how you start working against that trend.

Also, it's hard to say what things will look like 20 or 30 or 40 years from now in terms of car ownership. Maybe traffic plateaus as gas keeps rising past $1.50 a litre, EVs become more common, hybrid offices become entrenched and AVs or PRT starts coming online? But if all you're going to do is complain, "More people means more traffic for me!" without realizing that your arrival in the neighbourhood created more traffic for everyone else, who cares?

I don't disagree, but that's not what I was getting at.

 

[Northern Light]

I suggest Yonge Cummer.

And with that I'll see myself out

Bit late to this one; but I suggest renaming Drewry before hyphenating the name. I mean no one's really tied to the existing name anyway, so why don't we name the street to reflect much of the architectural quality of North York Centre?

Dreary!

Then the station can be named Dreary Cummer.....

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

If the election doesn't result in the City of Toronto receiving funding for a Cummer station, then I really hope they just place a TIF across the entire North York City Centre area extending north to Steeles and use it to finance the costs of the station.

NY Centre is so built out, I dunno what they'd get out of that.
This, on the other hand, could present a TIF opportunity...

Yonge Street North Planning Study

Yonge Street North Secondary Plan The Yonge Street North Planning Study has concluded with Council’s adoption of the Yonge Street North Secondary Plan. The Yonge Street North Secondary Plan establishes a new planning framework for the area and includes policies to guide growth and a complete...

www.toronto.ca

(Of course, Centerpoint has already filed their materials so I don't know if you can apply such things retroactively, even if the City actually did try that...)

 

[nfitz]

River, and CN requirements.

I'm not sure why they simply couldn't have gone above ground north of Steeles (over the creek, tracks, and 407) - perhaps cut-and-cover north of the 407.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I'm not sure why they simply couldn't have gone above ground north of Steeles (over the creek, tracks, and 407) - perhaps cut-and-cover north of the 407.

I always liked the bridge over the river myself but I think the alignment changes necessitated going underground. Firstly, I don't really know where you could have run the subway above ground through the urban corridor. But more to the point, how would you cut over to the at-grade path through the rail corridor? As it is, residents are less than thrilled with the depth of the tunnels.

If you're suggesting they could have stayed at-grade the entire way and stuck to the original alignment... I still find it hard to visualize an at-grade subway on this section of Yonge Street. That said, there were clearly a few factors that went into the final station locations and they felt that as long as they could get above ground in the CN corridor and put those stations above-grade, they were in the funding envelope. That's caused enough PR issues on its own so one can only imagine how the mayors of Vaughan, RH and Markham (and all the residents and all the business owners) would be reacting to a surface subway rumbling along the busiest section of York Region's main street.

 

[Undead]

I always liked the bridge over the river myself but I think the alignment changes necessitated going underground. Firstly, I don't really know where you could have run the subway above ground through the urban corridor. But more to the point, how would you cut over to the at-grade path through the rail corridor? As it is, residents are less than thrilled with the depth of the tunnels.

If you're suggesting they could have stayed at-grade the entire way and stuck to the original alignment... I still find it hard to visualize an at-grade subway on this section of Yonge Street. That said, there were clearly a few factors that went into the final station locations and they felt that as long as they could get above ground in the CN corridor and put those stations above-grade, they were in the funding envelope. That's caused enough PR issues on its own so one can only imagine how the mayors of Vaughan, RH and Markham (and all the residents and all the business owners) would be reacting to a surface subway rumbling along the busiest section of York Region's main street.

They're talking about TYSSE.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

NY Centre is so built out, I dunno what they'd get out of that.
This, on the other hand, could present a TIF opportunity...

Yonge Street North Planning Study

Yonge Street North Secondary Plan The Yonge Street North Planning Study has concluded with Council’s adoption of the Yonge Street North Secondary Plan. The Yonge Street North Secondary Plan establishes a new planning framework for the area and includes policies to guide growth and a complete...

www.toronto.ca

(Of course, Centerpoint has already filed their materials so I don't know if you can apply such things retroactively, even if the City actually did try that...)

There is still quite some infill development in the area, in addition to the lands mentioned nearer to Steeles. Of course, a city that actually cared about delivering housing and infrastructure needs would also look at upzoning some of the yellowbelt lands not to be touched, and incorporate that into a TIF zone.

As for the second point, isn't a TIF collecting and reallocating future projected tax revenue district-wide? Existing development and real estate, including current proposals, would all be included, as well as future development. It's not money taken from developers or something that would need to be retroactively applied. The only thing that is required for the TIF to work is for the property tax values within the district to continue increasing over the next 30-some years or whatever the length of the TIF is.

 

[Rainforest]

There is still quite some infill development in the area, in addition to the lands mentioned nearer to Steeles. Of course, a city that actually cared about delivering housing and infrastructure needs would also look at upzoning some of the yellowbelt lands not to be touched, and incorporate that into a TIF zone.

That's correct. The existing highrises are mostly facing Yonge, or are located within 100m from Yonge. If the areas west of Yonge towards Hilda, and east of Yonge towards Willowdale are upzoned, the population can increase quite a bit and development charges are applicable.

And the reverse is true as well. If the said areas are upzoned and get highrises, then having a mid-block subway station is highly desirable. Both Finch and Steeles stations will be a bit too far, if you need to walk to Yonge first, and then north/south on Yonge. Of course there exists the Yonge #97 bus and its frequency can be upgraded to a somewhat usable level, but the mid-block subway is a lot more convenient and the units will sell much better.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm not against the 6 stations. I guess I kind of felt like if you have to cut one, it should be RO and if you have to cut 2 it should be RO and Cummer and, generally speaking, I liked how the new alignment (with or without the recent tweaks) managed to make the project viable by cutting what it needed to, to get within the new budget.

Then I guess it depends how cynical you want to be about the process but I think it went like this:
-original plan includes Yonge alignment and 6 stations
-revised plan has a fixed budget envelope and must change the alignment, scrap 2 stations and move another 2 above ground
-BUT the alignment is still being designed to allow for the full 6 stations, if $ can be found
-$ are then found via the TOC program, which obviously did not exist for the original plan and the deals for which (at Bridge and HT) were apparently not finalized until relatively recently, as was the alignment

Was that the plan all along...?

None of us are naive enough to assume politics doesn't filter through all of this. Of course it does. The mere fact York Region has gotten an "extra" station makes one think Toronto will get their "extra" station too, which yes, brings us back to where we started with 6 stations. So everyone gets to have their cake and eat it too: Markham gets its silly station and so do the residents who said (in a way), "If you're going to ruin our neighbourhood, the least you can do is give us a subway station!)"
The Province has kept Metrolinx within its funding envelope while also demonstrating how the TOC program can generate not just savings for taxpayers but enough savings to supersize the transit projects by realizing their full potential through new stations etc. etc.

If you're smacking your head at how it all went down, I won't say you're wrong!

I agree with all of this. I think they wanted more money from the municipalities to be honest.

If the election doesn't result in the City of Toronto receiving funding for a Cummer station, then I really hope they just place a TIF across the entire North York City Centre area extending north to Steeles and use it to finance the costs of the station.

I hope so.

NY Centre is so built out, I dunno what they'd get out of that.
This, on the other hand, could present a TIF opportunity...

Yonge Street North Planning Study

Yonge Street North Secondary Plan The Yonge Street North Planning Study has concluded with Council’s adoption of the Yonge Street North Secondary Plan. The Yonge Street North Secondary Plan establishes a new planning framework for the area and includes policies to guide growth and a complete...

www.toronto.ca

(Of course, Centerpoint has already filed their materials so I don't know if you can apply such things retroactively, even if the City actually did try that...)

Probably time to build Sheppard East anyway.

There is still quite some infill development in the area, in addition to the lands mentioned nearer to Steeles. Of course, a city that actually cared about delivering housing and infrastructure needs would also look at upzoning some of the yellowbelt lands not to be touched, and incorporate that into a TIF zone.

As for the second point, isn't a TIF collecting and reallocating future projected tax revenue district-wide? Existing development and real estate, including current proposals, would all be included, as well as future development. It's not money taken from developers or something that would need to be retroactively applied. The only thing that is required for the TIF to work is for the property tax values within the district to continue increasing over the next 30-some years or whatever the length of the TIF is.

The west of Yonge and Sheppard too has some spots which need to be filled.

 

[smallspy]

I'm not sure why they simply couldn't have gone above ground north of Steeles (over the creek, tracks, and 407) - perhaps cut-and-cover north of the 407.

Because that would have required either a more major realignment of the line than they were willing to do, or a permanent take of a lot more land than they ended up using in the end.

Dan

 

[Rainforest]

Because that would have required either a more major realignment of the line than they were willing to do, or a permanent take of a lot more land than they ended up using in the end.

Dan

Yonge North, or TYSSE?

For Yonge North, the options are limited and most of it if not all must be tunneled.

But TYSSE ... could go on surface or in a very shallow trench (like at Rosedale) from Sheppard to Finch. Would have to mess with streets like Rimrock, Steeprock, Chesswood, but that's all low-rise industrial or strip malls and could be rebuilt for peanuts compared to the cost of tunneling. The Finch station would be located between Chesswood and the Newmarket rail line, rather than at Keele, and the GO station could go there as well. That's not necessarily bad, as a single hub would connect the subway, Barrie GO line, and Finch LRT.

Then, tunnel under York U till just north of the 407, with underground York U and Steels stations. And then, emerge and run on surface to the south-west corner of Jane and Hwy 7, where the terminal would be located. Again, a low-rise industrial area that can be rebuilt.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Snow squalls hit the GTA much more above Highway 7/407. Third rail powered heavy rail can cause problems with heavy snowfall. Open stretches of the Line 1 extension may cause short turns during snow squalls. The rails had better be raised high enough than the surrounding terrain to help keep snow off the third rail.