Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

ARG1 said:
Why are you conflating two stations that have completely different contexts and reasons for existing? The argument for cutting Cummer isn't "its too close to Finch therefore it shouldn't be built", its "Building Cummer will come at the cost of building Royal Orchard or Clark, and so if we're comparing them to see which one will get built the proximity to Finch is a reason to slash Cummer."

High Tech is being built no matter. We're not building High Tech at the cost of another station, its just a cheap bonus to serve the developments in that area, and if the government was smart, could be funded directly by the developers similar to Capstan Station in Vancouver. This amount of Whataboutism doesn't work here.
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In fairness, I think, in talking about Cummer, the issue isn't just "it's close to Finch" but that "it's so close to Finch AND Steeles, that the number of new riders you're capturing who can't easily use one of those two stations is minimal." High Tech is the terminal, so it doesn't have that issue - but it's fair to ask the same question: how many new riders is it capturing? The answer is, plenty.

Plus, while I'm sure more highrsise will continue along Yonge, the huge M2M development is already going in so it doesn't "need" a subway station to make it a reality. By contrast, as you say, High Tech is minimal $ and unlocking far more substantial development. And as for the government being smart, we already know this is precisely what they are doing and it's something getting kind of lost in the shuffle of all the station talk here.


They've already shown some plans for the OL, and eventually we'll hear about Scarborough and Yonge.

So ask yourself: which stations will given them the biggest bang for the buck, in terms of getting developers to offset some of the costs? Once again, in these terms, High Tech is an absolute no-brainer. M2M won't be giving a cent to the project so what other development is planned for Cummer that's remotely in the same stratosphere?
None.

Clark is kind of in the middle, with some solid potential for intensification along Yonge, especially to the south.

Royal Orchard is a tricky one, because there is that one development planned for there. But is it enough....? We'll see!


ARG1 said:
Which brings up an interesting question. Something I noticed from listening to the town hall is that some of the locals claim that if Royal Orchard is built they're not too concerned with the noise (although this is pretty typically NIMBY tactics, propose an alternative and if that alternative is implemented then forget you proposed it and still complain) so the question is would going that route while making more potential noise be more worth it and satisfy the NIMBYs.
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I think you've gotten part of the issue which is, Royal Orchard is the most likely of the 3 neighbourhood stations to be cut, BUT the Option 3 alignment still protects for it, so it could always be added later. So, the Royal Orchard people are annoyed because not only are the darned trains running under their homes; they don't even get a station out of it! It's kind of a lose/lose for the Royal Orchard folks, at least from their perspective but if they got a new station, maybe they'd suck up the alleged loss of property values etc.

Rainforest said:
The route isn't going through a forest. The Roal Orchard station, if built, will probably overtake the likes of Old Mill, Glencair, Castle Frank in daily ridership.

The density around that area is generally low, although there is at least one (maybe more) multi-storey at Roal Orchard & Yonge. The catchment area will be pretty big, for both walk-in traffic and a bus from the east, resulting in a reasonable daily usage.
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I admire your optimism but I don't think it'll be that good and this isn't really supported by the Intitial Business Case.
The IBC says it has limited surface connections and most riders during the day will be walk-ins. Three apartment buildings and one mixed-use development on the edge of a valley just isn't very much density.

The Initial Business Case estimates 1,320 riders in the morning weekday peak; about half what they figure for Clark and 40% of Cummer (I'm ballparking the math here.)
I don't know if there's a formula to extrapolate that into daily ridership (and TTC's stats only seem to have daily ridership) but the idea it might be one of the five worst stations (and extra deep, and expensive) but not THE actual worst isn't an idea I'm really coming around to, personally :)
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
I admire your optimism but I don't think it'll be that good and this isn't really supported by the Intitial Business Case.
The IBC says it has limited surface connections and most riders during the day will be walk-ins. Three apartment buildings and one mixed-use development on the edge of a valley just isn't very much density.

The Initial Business Case estimates 1,320 riders in the morning weekday peak; about half what they figure for Clark and 40% of Cummer (I'm ballparking the math here.)
I don't know if there's a formula to extrapolate that into daily ridership (and TTC's stats only seem to have daily ridership) but the idea it might be one of the five worst stations (and extra deep, and expensive) but not THE actual worst isn't an idea I'm really coming around to, personally :)
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Transit upgrades should have something for the people currently residing in the area, not just for the people who will move in after the construction is done :)

But I get the situation with the Royal Orchard Stn now. Sadly, that station may not be supportable when combined with Option 3, because the line has to run deep in that place, and the station would have to be deep and very expensive.

Then I hope that, at least, both the Clark Stn and the Cummer / Drewry Stn will be built. Neither of them needs to be very deep. Clark Stn will have a very wide catchment area, quite a few existing highrises, and more highrises to come within walking distance. And Cummer Stn will play the same role between Finch and Steeles as the North York Centre Stn plays between Sheppard and Finch. The North York Centre Stn is quite popular despite having almost no surface feeders, bus #97 can be all but discounted. The Cummer Stn should fare even better, as it will have plenty of walk-ins and also the moderately frequent Cummer - Drewry bus.
 
i think this was covered earlier, but why doesn't metrolinx put a station on center street? its good station spacing and seems to have decent connections to the surrounding community. and with option 3 its far enough south that the station wouldn't have to be so deep.
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dullturtle06 said:
i think this was covered earlier, but why doesn't metrolinx put a station on center street? its good station spacing and seems to have decent connections to the surrounding community. and with option 3 its far enough south that the station wouldn't have to be so deep.View attachment 323869
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Mainly density. Centre doesn't have the density of Clark, nor the planned density of royal orchard, and it's a little close to those two to have all three. I think it would make a good location for a compromise station if they had to, but i'd rather they build one of the two now with provisions for the other to be built as they would probably see more use.
 
dullturtle06 said:
i think this was covered earlier, but why doesn't metrolinx put a station on center street? its good station spacing and seems to have decent connections to the surrounding community. and with option 3 its far enough south that the station wouldn't have to be so deep.View attachment 323869
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Its definitely an option, however for every positive there is an equal negative. The main positive is bus connections, Viva Orange is planned to get a new branch that heads over to Yonge along Centre, and iirc there are several other bus routes that use it. Plus its right next to John Street so theoretically you can run several high frequency bus routes along Centre + John and properly serve the area. This is where the positives end however.

Centre has the same problem as Royal Orchard being right next to the Don River meaning that with the current "dig under don plan", the station will actually be quite deep anyway - maybe not as deep but still quite deep anyway. As a bonus the area would be quite difficult to properly develop due to being near a flood plain (I'm not sure if its in it or not) and as pointed out in previous posts, Clark and Royal Orchard are in much better positions for some TOCs. Finally, even though I said in terms of direct bus routes John and Center are better positioned, they aren't better designed. Between Dufferin and Yonge, Clark is a 4 lane street with capacity, throughput, and would be a much better location for a more frequent feeder bus service to serve the Subway. Most importantly, Clark has "things on it", stores, coffee shops (well they're located in strip malls, but those are again opportunities to redevelop them into some mixed use developments), a synagogue, meanwhile Center and John are dinky streets that could easily get overloaded - they are neighborhood streets with a bunch of detached single family houses. A Viva Orange branch that goes down on Bathurst and heads down Clark would be far better than a Viva Orange that through lines along Centre long term.

Now if we were building this line like we did Line 2 back in the late 60s, Cut and Cover with cheap shallow stations and where money can be spent on more stations, sure build it. If we had the money to build Cummer, Clark, Centre, and RO, sure build it. However as it stands we're struggling to build even one of them, and Centre is simply a bad compromise.
 
dullturtle06 said:
i think this was covered earlier, but why doesn't metrolinx put a station on center street? its good station spacing and seems to have decent connections to the surrounding community. and with option 3 its far enough south that the station wouldn't have to be so deep.View attachment 323869
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Centre instead of Clark, would be a non-starter because of the high density potential at Clark, and virtually no such opportunities at Centre (heritage district).

Both Clark and Centre, the latter replacing Royal Orchard .. I would like that, but doubt Metrolinx will go for that. As ARG1 mentioned, the Centre station should be cheaper than RO, but will be costly nevertheless.
 
KhalilHeron said:
Mainly density. Centre doesn't have the density of Clark, nor the planned density of royal orchard, and it's a little close to those two to have all three. I think it would make a good location for a compromise station if they had to, but i'd rather they build one of the two now with provisions for the other to be built as they would probably see more use.
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i meant center station, instead of Royal Orchard. Clark station is a must in my opinion.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Why build a subway beyond Yonge and Eglinton? Not much in density.

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From link.
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I know you're joking but the serious answer for this was a mixture of politics and great salesmanship. The first discussion of an extension beyond Eglinton was in I believe 1959, with an extension to Sheppard. 1961 was the first time any real plan was made, with a 2 phase project being shown. Phase 1 being an extension to Sheppard Avenue with stops at Glencairn, Lawrence, Glen Echo, and York Mills; with an opening date of 1970. Phase 2 was to be a further extension to Steeles Avenue with stops at Empress, Finch, and Cummer; with construction starting in 1980. This whole discussion started because while North York lacked density, what it had was rapid growth, and a plan for a downtown core along Yonge Street, and eventually a man at the helm who was hell bent on seeing it through (Mel Lastman). Mel Lastman and his predecessor James Service weren't content with North York being just a sleepy suburb like Scarborough or Etobicoke, they wanted it to be the second Toronto. Lastman himself even stated that a successful downtown core needed more than just cars, it needed public transit, and pedestrian space; we got one, the other is still a work in progress. (Also Lastmans colleagues in Etobicoke and Scarborough apparently never got this message *cough* Scarborough Town Centre *cough*)By the mid 1960's Metro was looking for its next projects and while Toronto (alongside Long Branch, New Toronto, Mimico, and Swansea) pushed for the Queen Street Subway, the suburbs were also making demands, and it became apparent that extending the current network into the burbs would be easier and more politically popular then building a new line from scratch. As we all know the Yonge Line was extended but based off of the 1965 plan which saw mid-block stations cut and the line eventually buried under the Don River (sound familiar?). In 69' we added on an extension to Finch although North York wasn't all to pleased since it didn't include the station at Empress/Park Holme, and without that stop North York's plans for a downtown core were pretty much useless. Luckily though we had the forethought the design the extension to allow for a future station, which would become North York Centre. As well the TTC didn't really support an extension to Steeles at the time since Markham and Vaughan didn't have the water and sewer infrastructure to support the development that would follow.

Unfortunately the Queen Subway was a casualty in all of this, as it was always the number 2 priority but never number 1. Other projects would always come along and leap-frog it on the priority list. I would say the final nail in the coffin for the Queen Subway was in 1967 when the towns of Long Branch, New Toronto, Mimico, and Swansea were amalgamated into their neighbouring municipalities. After this the balance of power on Metro Council shifted north of Bloor, and Toronto was alone in its support for the project. Here we are today in 2021 and nothing has really changed.
 
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The locals have fully mobilized! We'll see how many people show up, how much media coverage they get etc.

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Rally to Keep the YSNE on Yonge Saturday, June 5th | Subway at RO

With the stay at home order ending on June 2nd, We are planning to Rally on Yonge Street Saturday, June 5th. It's time for our community to come together! We need your presence to help us achieve our first event goal: to stop the Metrolinx plan from diverting the Yonge North Subway Extension from
www.subwayatro.com www.subwayatro.com
 
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Rainforest said:
^ Mixed feeling about that. Maybe they have a point, but the possible outcome is no subway :(
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Nah, that's not going to happen. Either they'll tunnel under and deal with the fallout or shift alignments, saving face but probably at cost to taxpayers.

I said all along, I'd be worried too if I heard a subway was going under my house and the onus is on Metrolinx to assuage their fears. If they do that but residents don't want to listen (which was a bit of the online meeting vibe), that's another issue.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
Happening now.... the revolution is being televised. Or Twitterized, anyway...

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(I don't see much media, but there is a guy with a camera. Maybe the weekend is the big thing...)
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Just a fun idea, how about the government says "fine if you guys want option 1, we'll go with option 1 BUT we'll increase the taxes on this community for five years to cover the extra costs".

Reminder that it's just a funny idea that I doubt will ever happen or if it's even possible.
 
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