Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

There won't be reduced crowding on the Yonge line.

Perhaps yes relative to if DRL is not built at all (e.g. Yonge subway crowding will grow in intensity faster)

Subways are also prone to induced demand, too.

Many cities in subway building sprees discovered that -- just look at what happened to Beijing and Shanghai.

And also the early years of NYC and London subway boom.

That said, better induced demand to occur with subways than with freeways though -- the Yonge subway handles more people than the 401 does*

*Almost 1 million passengers per day on Yonge subway, versus about 500,000 vehicles per day (avg ~1.7 occupants / vehicle) past Weston on 401 (2016 statistics)
 
There won't be reduced crowding on the Yonge line.

Perhaps yes relative to if DRL is not built at all (e.g. Yonge subway crowding will grow in intensity faster)

Subways are also prone to induced demand, too.

Many cities in subway building sprees discovered that -- just look at what happened to Beijing and Shanghai.

And also the early years of NYC and London subway boom.

That said, better induced demand to occur with subways than with freeways though -- the Yonge subway handles more people than the 401 does*

*Almost 1 million passengers per day on Yonge subway, versus about 500,000 vehicles per day (avg ~1.7 occupants / vehicle) past Weston on 401 (2016 statistics)
I'm curious as to the length of the 401 studied.
 
Scarborough residents having outside polticians telling them whats best has never been in short supply.

Why are you even talking transfer options for this line anyway? No legit party supports it and the debate is long over.

Syn can't help himself, he still thinks we're living in the circa-2007 David Miller era and any viewpoint that challenges the LRTs-for-all mentality that era evoked affects his worldview. It wouldn't matter if every last Scarborough resident was all for subways, he'd still dig up some biased junk poll showing otherwise as irrefutable proof that his side, and his alone, is right.
 
Last I checked, I supported Waterfront Transit, and that doesn't mean that I have to support one over the other.

Also, if we're going to talk about priorities, in terms of ridership, Yonge North is far ahead of Waterfront transit.


However, in terms of densification, Waterfront, DRL West, and the crosstown come out on top. It depends on your priorities, that doesn't mean one is inherently better than the other. Having 2000 buses a day travel on one corridor is extremely stupid, that's about 1 bus per minute per direction all day, or at least 2 per minute per direction during peak hours. The number of buses that is displacing from the rest of the system and the amount of money it costs to run those buses is astounding, at least 30K in drivers salaries and 12K dollars in fuel per day, or almost 15 million dollars annually, on just one section of line (this doesn't include ancillary costs like maintenance). Over the course of 30 years, that's 460 million dollars. Doesn't that seem a little wasteful? What about environmental costs?

Spoil your vote, or vote for the rhinoceros party.

Regional transit should address transit needs in Richmond Hill and beyond.

Urban transit infrastructure should be prioritized in urban transit environments.
 
Why aren't you blaming Miller and Giambrone for NOT upgrading the RT and NOT taking the province check to start Relief South?

Oh I do. But that plan, at the very least, brought sensible transit solutions to priority neighbourhoods in the city. The LRT in Scarborough wasn't the most cost effective solution, but it was comprehensive, addressed inter-Scarborough transit, was ripe for future expansion and fully paid for by the province. A far better solution than what's currently on the table.

Ford wanted the LRT merged with Eglinton but council was still tripping on Transit City killed it.

No, they killed it because he wanted the entire thing buried and all remaining transit funding dedicated to making it happen.
 
Syn can't help himself, he still thinks we're living in the circa-2007 David Miller era and any viewpoint that challenges the LRTs-for-all mentality that era evoked affects his worldview. It wouldn't matter if every last Scarborough resident was all for subways, he'd still dig up some biased junk poll showing otherwise as irrefutable proof that his side, and his alone, is right.

No, I'm for using common sense and following transit planning as outlined by transit experts - not vote buying politicians, especially ones who base their decisions on someone they spoke to once while they were in Scarborough.

It really doesn't matter what Scarborough residents want, what matters is what makes sense for the area.
 
Oh I do. But that plan, at the very least, brought sensible transit solutions to priority neighbourhoods in the city. The LRT in Scarborough wasn't the most cost effective solution, but it was comprehensive, addressed inter-Scarborough transit, was ripe for future expansion and fully paid for by the province. A far better solution than what's currently on the table.



No, they killed it because he wanted the entire thing buried and all remaining transit funding dedicated to making it happen.


Hate to rehash something that's been discussed over and now this is actually off topic but falsehoods need corrected. The LRT line agreed upon by Ford and McGuinty was elevated in the portion along the RT corridor.

Also of note FWIW Giambrone supported the SSE when he ran against Ford in 2010 along with Smitherman.

If you need to repond I'm happy to help just move it to the other thread.


It really doesn't matter what Scarborough residents want, what matters is what makes sense for the area.

Well this unfortunate and heavily subjective statement explains the state of last decade of Municipal Politics quite well. As It turns out what Scarborough residents wants for its own future matters quite a bit even in amalgamted City.
 
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once DRL south and the new signalling system is in place, the capacity projections consistently show that this one can be built. And it's needed. Ridership is very high on this corridor, especially south of Steeles.

Remember that this line is actually projected to have higher ridership pulling into Finch than the DRL will. The DRL is obviously higher priority given it's capacity relief function, but behind DRL south, this is the next subway up in line for priority.

DRL north will have lower ridership and have diminishing returns in terms of capacity relief of the Yonge line the further it goes north. Still needed, but if the capacity is there, this needs to get built.
This is an arguement to put it on Don Mills rather then Victoria Park, imo.
 
I'm curious as to the length of the 401 studied.
Nontheless, on a corridorwidth basis, there should be unamious agreement that many mass transit systems are much more efficient at moving people than some of the world's widest freeways.

TTC subway handles ~30,000 people per hour per direction (it has exceeded that on many overcapacity days). Officially, it's 28,000 ppphpd, but in practice, it can significantly exceed that on really bad days.

A freeway lane according Transport Canada / USDOT -- moves only 1700-2200 cars per hour (tailgating less than 2 seconds -- there's only 60 x 60 = 3600 seconds in 1 hour).

And when a freeway hits "congestion collapse" (aka really bad peak period) and crawls at human-reaction-time stop-and-go -- it actually can move less cars than when it's flowing well. So the freeway efficiency versus subway efficiency actually becomes a bigger delta during peak.

Either way, do the math...

You'll quickly agree that mass transit is really, really important for dense cities ;)

Now that said, subways should be built where they need them the most, to be utilized efficiently.

That said, DRL will certainly generate induced demand (if you've been watching subway-boom cities of lore & recent), which will potentially interact with DRL's ability as a relief. So DRL simply relieves future demand (or it becomes even more dangerous like this (staff pushing people onto subways in certain Asian countries), it just won't necessarily make Yonge Subway less crowded than today. There will be operational/choice flexibility which will help people avoid congestion. The point is DRL is simply relief to future status quo, not relief to today's status quo. Meaning, Yonge likely won't ever be less crowded than today. In the ultra-long term, if Yonge North and DRL-Long+West is built, then even Sheppard+Scarborough will be heavily used because of the induced demand effect of a well-gridded subway system (which Toronto doesn't really have yet). Core subways must be built first though to properly utilize taxpayer efficiencies. So need DRL badly --- and beyond -- just to run rapidly in place on a rapidly-speeding-up treadmill.

To learn more about how well-designed mass transit can move an order of magnitude more people than freeways per lane:
-- Google "TTC 28000 people per hour" and you'll see lots of stats. Also, fully milking the 1min50sec headways of the upcoming CBTC system and maxing out the trainset count, can bring the peak capacity much closer to 35,000 ppphpd, potentially up to 40,000 ppphpd on the overcapacity days (We'll ideally need platform doors to get to 40,000 though).
-- Google "freeway capacity vehicles per hour". And look at the transportation ministry PDF files including USA too. Worldwide, you will get vehicle numbers ranging from ~1400 to ~2400 with the averages being extremely close to 2000 ideal and 1500 realistic per lane, and average passenger per vehicles being typically under 2.
 
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Regional transit should address transit needs in Richmond Hill and beyond.

Urban transit infrastructure should be prioritized in urban transit environments.
Last I checked, Yonge street is extremely "Urban"

Urban areas are popping up all over the place. People are working at Sheppard Yonge and North York Centre, and along Yonge street all the way north. Half the line is in Toronto and that section of line is actually needed quite a bit considering the clusterf*** that is Finch Station.
 
Last I checked, Yonge street is extremely "Urban"

Urban areas are popping up all over the place. People are working at Sheppard Yonge and North York Centre, and along Yonge street all the way north. Half the line is in Toronto and that section of line is actually needed quite a bit considering the clusterf*** that is Finch Station.

Check again.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Y...7ed7d30daedf7a!8m2!3d43.8324538!4d-79.4281487

Not all of Yonge street is Yonge and Bloor - I thought that would've been obvious.

By urban, I mean dense (employment & residential) and walkable - suitable for subway infrastruture.

Yonge Street in Richmond Hill and Markham are lifetimes away from qualifying.
 

I could pull up Kipling station too and it will still look like a wasteland. Of course not all of Yonge street is extremely dense, but a good majority of it is (outside of freeway interchanges).
 
I could pull up Kipling station too and it will still look like a wasteland. Of course not all of Yonge street is extremely dense, but a good majority of it is (outside of freeway interchanges).

Yes. Exactly.

40 years after it opened, and the subway hasn't transformed the area.

We need to build this kind of infrastructure where it's needed.

I'm not suggesting no transit should be built in Richmond Hill, etc., but a subway is waste of money, especially given other needs.

And I'm sorry, but Yonge north of Steeles has nowhere near the density necessary to justify a subway.

Here is the area where Richmond Hill Centre Station would be:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.841...42.807606&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

Let me guess - the people of Richmond Hill deserve a connection to Kelsey's Roadhouse, Indigo and The Brick. Anything less and they're being treated like 2nd class citizens!
 
Yes. Exactly.

40 years after it opened, and the subway hasn't transformed the area.

We need to build this kind of infrastructure where it's needed.

I'm not suggesting no transit should be built in Richmond Hill, etc., but a subway is waste of money, especially given other needs.

And I'm sorry, but Yonge north of Steeles has nowhere near the density necessary to justify a subway.

Here is the area where Richmond Hill Centre Station would be:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8414763,-79.4301393,3a,75y,130.01h,92.89t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqmn3Ymo8_3Mu9IXGM3LV7g!2e0!6s//geo1.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid=qmn3Ymo8_3Mu9IXGM3LV7g&output=thumbnail&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&thumb=2&w=203&h=100&yaw=42.807606&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

Let me guess - the people of Richmond Hill deserve a connection to Kelsey's Roadhouse, Indigo and The Brick. Anything less and they're being treated like 2nd class citizens!
Then explain the existing ridership on the corridor. Kipling is a huge station with about 50,000 passengers using it on a daily basis. That's one of the highest in the system. The point is that an area doesn't have to be dense, it has to be served by the demands of travel. In the case of Yonge, that's heading downtown. People from side streets funnel into Yonge and this is what generates the existing 120 K PPD along the corridor.
 

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