Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Why are we extending subway lines at $300-350 million per km to suburban low density areas like Vaughan Corporate Centre (which has nothing but big box stores) and Richmond Hill Centre,.... when Toronto is struggling to find funding for LRT at about $40 million per km to service much higher density and much more urban areas within Toronto???

I think Disparishun kinda answered this and I've said it elsewhere but people in Toronto need to understand: Richmond Hill Centre, and Vaughan Corporate Centre are provincially-designated growth areas. That means they will have very high densities in the next few years, by law.

I'm sure there were people in 1974 who couldn't understand why TTC would build out to Finch when it was basically farmland but that's why it's called PLANNING.

The TTC's been very much lacking in that lately, partially I grant because of funding cuts over the years. But Transit City is basically pulled out of their asses and doesn't have the planning justifications the subway extensions do. IF it did there would be a DRL and a Sheppard subway, for starters.

That's not to say Toronto doesn't need its own transit lines and funding but people who think the Yonge and Spadina extensions are going to nowhere are very much mistaken.

In addition to all the new riders the new stations will bring people like sunnyraytoronto also seem not to understand that a lot of riders getting on at Finch are already driving or taking double-fare buses from York Region. It's in everyone's interests to "dump" everyone on the trains earlier and, yes, the extension of the Spadina subway will mitigate how much "dumping" there is on the Yonge line.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm sure there were people in 1974 who couldn't understand why TTC would build out to Finch when it was basically farmland but that's why it's called PLANNING.

And a good part of planning is ensure that your client does not get stiffed with an unfair tab and that you continue to adequately serving existing customers as you take on new ones.

There is an easy solution to the bun fight problem. Place the TTC subway network under Metrolinx jurisdiction and operate it along with GO transit as a true integrated regional network with the costs borne out by the entire GTA. Let's see how Hamilton feels when they have to pay for a subway they can't ride....hmmm kinda like Scarborough now.....

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

There is an easy solution to the bun fight problem. Place the TTC subway network under Metrolinx jurisdiction and operate it along with GO transit as a true integrated regional network with the costs borne out by the entire GTA. Let's see how Hamilton feels when they have to pay for a subway they can't ride....hmmm kinda like Scarborough now.....

...and TTC won't want to relenquish it but you may be right about it being the most plausible solution. As for the rest, that's just how taxes work. It's why seniors still pay education taxes on their property bill and why you pay EI when you have a job.

Clearly someone other than TTC, likely Metrolinx, needs to figure out a fair way to fund and operate a regional system. We'll see if we hear anything about how that will work before 2013. In the meantime, I'm just saying TTC needs to understand that's the long-term goal...and by long-term I mean in the next 5 years.

 

[kEiThZ]

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Clearly someone other than TTC, likely Metrolinx, needs to figure out a fair way to fund and operate a regional system. We'll see if we hear anything about how that will work before 2013. In the meantime, I'm just saying TTC needs to understand that's the long-term goal...and by long-term I mean in the next 5 years.

I sympathize with the TTC here because of the predicament they are in. The province and the feds are only willing to pitch in for lines which will help elect 905 politicians, yet are unwilling to truly commit to network building. Yet the TTC's mandate is to serve the citizens (and taxpayers) of Toronto, first and foremost. Not the 905. Ansem is right, we could well face the Montreal-Laval predicament as the extension brings on an increase in ridership that overwhelms planned capacity upgrades. Heck, according to some even the requisite Yonge/Bloor upgrades might not be sufficient. Accusing the TTC of being parochial is a cheap shot. There are opportunity costs for every project and most particularly for transit projects given the scarcity of funding in this province and particularly for the TTC's subway building efforts. The mayor is correct to ask what the city of Toronto which builds, funds and operates the subway network would have to give up to serve the citizens of Richmond Hill.

If we wish to get a more regional approach, then the wider region should be willing to help pay the tab. Just look at the attitude towards helping pay Toronto's social services cost. Now imagine what would happen if the subway tab was thrown on there. The 905ers would be marching on Queen's Park in no time. The reason we lack a regional approach has more to do with the 905 than the 416. The 905 municipalities want the TTC to operate the subway into their regions while they want only minimal exposure to the costs and liabilities of running a regional subway network. Until that changes, the TTC will remains the brightest bulb of the bunch.

ps. I should think long term planning would mean more than 5 years when it comes to transportation network planning.

 

[cowpie]

I think it's important to remember that every other train is starting at Finch or Steeles rather than RHC. So shouldn't it stop some overcrowding?

 

[toraerach]

Yet the TTC's mandate is to serve the citizens (and taxpayers) of Toronto, first and foremost. Not the 905.If we wish to get a more regional approach, then the wider region should be willing to help pay the tab. Just look at the attitude towards helping pay Toronto's social services cost. Now imagine what would happen if the subway tab was thrown on there. The 905ers would be marching on Queen's Park in no time. The reason we lack a regional approach has more to do with the 905 than the 416. The 905 municipalities want the TTC to operate the subway into their regions while they want only minimal exposure to the costs and liabilities of running a regional subway network. Until that changes, the TTC will remains the brightest bulb of the bunch.

These 416 vs. 905 arguments come up almost every time we talk about transit expansion and frequently when it comes to other issues (heritage preservation, pedestrian activity, and property tax all come to mind). These arguments are in no way constructive. They are just area codes and lines drawn on maps.

Municipalities everywhere in Canada are underfunded, so it is understandable why these arguments exist over resource allocation. However, that in no way excuses this kind of behaviour. The reason we lack a regional approach to transit is not a simple matter of the 905 holding the 416 back. Consider the fact that until very recently there has been no transit plan for the GTAH, and certainly very limited funding to get one started. Also consider the fact that there are 10 different transit service providers in the GTAH that all have different priorities and are reluctant to give up farebox revenues for the sake of a regional system because it would financially destroy them.

I'm not going to get into examples of how the 905 and 416 both screw each other over. It's all been said before.

However, as many on this forum have brought up, if the TTC wanted the province to invest in subway construction within the City of Toronto limits, they should at least have asked for it. They didn't, York Region did. Toronto residents should take this up with the City and not resort to blaming the 905 simply for wanting it more.

EDIT: That should read "blaming the 905 simply for York Region wanting it more." I doubt anyone in Peel, Halton, or Durham was really rooting for this.

 

[lead82]

Well said. The blame for lack of subway expansion within Toronto lands squarely on the city government and its agencies. The TTC's rapid transit plan put the main subway priorities as Spadina to York and Sheppard East. However, they never fought for them. Where was the DRL in the Toronto 30 year transit plan as part of the city plan. It was not there. They dreamed up Avenues with streetcars running along them. This is the official City of Toronto plan up to 2031.

The York Region plan calls for a subway to RHC, and Vaughan Centre. They don't just put a line on a map, they fight for it and lobby government to get it funded.

Toronto proposed Transit City and is now fighting for it. So I will give credit to them for that. However, that plan would only be adequate until 2020, and it does nothing to improve transit downtown. Transit City should have included DRL (subway) as part of it. Maybe then McGuinty could have funded it under the Move2020 plan.

Transit is a political beast. Always has been and always will be. The lines/network that gets built is the one that gets fought for. If we want a regional network, then we have to start thinking like a region and not 905 vs 416. This kind of talk is not helpful.

We all live in the GTA region. The 'T' stands for Toronto. We need to stand as one region and cooperate as one. Economically we cooperate, why can't we do the same with transit planning?

 

[Disparishun]

Ansem is right, we could well face the Montreal-Laval predicament as the extension brings on an increase in ridership that overwhelms planned capacity upgrades.

Look, I really think Ansem has confused Toronto and Montreal here. They are very different.

The lives of Montreal and Laval are separated by a river with bridges across it -- they are separate places. The lives of Willowdale and Thornhill are not separated by a river with bridges across it -- they are continuous and integrated entities with steady density bridging right across them, and which are lived as an unbroken urban area.

Whether or not the Yonge extension causes too many subway riders who someone would prefer to see in cars, is unrelated to what happened in Laval, except to the extent that they are both terminus stations. York Region is not some separate world on the opposite shore of a river. Surely this affects things!

If we wish to get a more regional approach, then the wider region should be willing to help pay the tab.

If I understand correctly, the federal government is to fund one third of the build costs, and the provincial government is to fund two thirds. Yes?

The 905 municipalities want the TTC to operate the subway into their regions while they want only minimal exposure to the costs and liabilities of running a regional subway network.

Do you mean that the "905 municipalities" should raise funds, through property taxes, to cover TTC operating costs, that are equivalent to what the City of Toronto raises to cover TTC operating costs, in a manner proportional to the degree which the TTC's operations take place in the "905 municipalities"?

I would agree with this. (What is currently slated -- something different? Silence on the issue?) However, I would note that this is a you-should-pay argument rather than a don't-build-it argument, right?

 

[Disparishun]

These 416 vs. 905 arguments come up almost every time we talk about transit expansion and frequently when it comes to other issues (heritage preservation, pedestrian activity, and property tax all come to mind). These arguments are in no way constructive. They are just area codes and lines drawn on maps.

Exactly!

 

[Anth]

This is Toronto.

Looks like one big city to me.

 

[kEiThZ]

These 416 vs. 905 arguments come up almost every time we talk about transit expansion and frequently when it comes to other issues (heritage preservation, pedestrian activity, and property tax all come to mind). These arguments are in no way constructive. They are just area codes and lines drawn on maps.

They come up because they are real issues and they have not been resolved. The TTC can and should only work with partners who recognize that it's first goal (and official mandate) are to serve the citizens and taxpayers of Toronto. If the rest of the GTA wishes to have it any other way, they should ask the province to take over the TTC and the liabilities that come with it. I suspect that this has not been proposed simply because the other municipalities want the service but not the bills that come with it.

Well said. The blame for lack of subway expansion within Toronto lands squarely on the city government and its agencies. The TTC's rapid transit plan put the main subway priorities as Spadina to York and Sheppard East. However, they never fought for them. Where was the DRL in the Toronto 30 year transit plan as part of the city plan. It was not there. They dreamed up Avenues with streetcars running along them. This is the official City of Toronto plan up to 2031.

The York Region plan calls for a subway to RHC, and Vaughan Centre. They don't just put a line on a map, they fight for it and lobby government to get it funded.

Pray tell what happened in the last great era of subway construction. The province left us with a hole in the ground on Eglinton and the Sheppard stubway. It's more than likely that episode convinced planners and politicians in Toronto that our higher levels of government would be hostile to funding subways here on in.

I will conceded though, that the city has failed to adapt to the Metrolinx reality. Instead of pushing for 20 billion worth of subway construction, it pushed for Transit City. A failure of vision to be sure, but let's not discount the lessons of their past ambitions. Look at the smooth ride for the two extensions into York. And compare that experience to the rough ride of the 90's.

Transit is a political beast. Always has been and always will be. The lines/network that gets built is the one that gets fought for. If we want a regional network, then we have to start thinking like a region and not 905 vs 416. This kind of talk is not helpful.

It may not be helpful but it's reality. Your right that transit is a political beast. And that reality has left the city and residents of Toronto with the short end of the stick.

Look, I really think Ansem has confused Toronto and Montreal here. They are very different.

The lives of Montreal and Laval are separated by a river with bridges across it -- they are separate places. The lives of Willowdale and Thornhill are not separated by a river with bridges across it -- they are continuous and integrated entities with steady density bridging right across them, and which are lived as an unbroken urban area.

Whether or not the Yonge extension causes too many subway riders who someone would prefer to see in cars, is unrelated to what happened in Laval, except to the extent that they are both terminus stations. York Region is not some separate world on the opposite shore of a river. Surely this affects things!

Geography does not matter. Ansem's point stands. It would not matter even if Hwy 7 was within the boundaries of the 416. His point is still valid. You cannot expand the system without increasing capacity. Extending the Yonge line will bring new ridership. We all accept that. After all, that's the purpose of transit investment. However, folks like Ansem and I, do not consider it prudent to take on more new ridership without dealing the existing undercapacity on the Yonge line. Indeed, Steve Munro, has raise similar arguments that the extension will overwhelm whatever planned capacity increase is being invested in.

If I understand correctly, the federal government is to fund one third of the build costs, and the provincial government is to fund two thirds. Yes?

The issue is not the construction cost but the O&M and recapitalization costs for the decades to come. Will York region help pitch in for new subway cars in 2 decades or will the taxpayer's of Toronto be stuck with the whole tab?

Do you mean that the "905 municipalities" should raise funds, through property taxes, to cover TTC operating costs, that are equivalent to what the City of Toronto raises to cover TTC operating costs, in a manner proportional to the degree which the TTC's operations take place in the "905 municipalities"?

I would agree with this. (What is currently slated -- something different? Silence on the issue?) However, I would note that this is a you-should-pay argument rather than a don't-build-it argument, right?

This is my problem with this project...and the mayor's challenge. The tab for York region will be only the construction cost for the portion that is in York region. Yet this tab does not account for the added expense that will be incurred to provided added capacity along the line and the entire network for the increased ridership from York region. Albeit, in this case, the impact on the TTC network will be mostly limited to the Yonge line. But why is not alright for the mayor to ask the other parties to help pay for the capacity increases that will accomodate the increased ridership? Or should the taxpayers of Toronto have to literarlly give up their seats to 905ers for the mere privilege of getting the line extended to Steeles.

 

[kEiThZ]

Personally, as I have proposed before, I would like to see all HRT in the GTA under one umbrella, combining GO rail and the subway, leaving more local transit like bus and lrt lines to the local municipalities....kinda like how London Underground is separate from London's surface transit operations.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

If I understand correctly, the federal government is to fund one third of the build costs, and the provincial government is to fund two thirds. Yes?


Do you mean that the "905 municipalities" should raise funds, through property taxes, to cover TTC operating costs, that are equivalent to what the City of Toronto raises to cover TTC operating costs, in a manner proportional to the degree which the TTC's operations take place in the "905 municipalities"?

I would agree with this. (What is currently slated -- something different? Silence on the issue?) However, I would note that this is a you-should-pay argument rather than a don't-build-it argument, right?

"905 municipalities" should raise funds, through property taxes, to cover TTC operating costs, that are equivalent to what the City of Toronto raises to cover TTC operating costs, NOT in a manner proportional to the degree which the TTC's operations take place in the "905 municipalities",.. but in a manner proportional to the degree to which 905 riders use the TTC. Whether you argue this is a you-should-pay argument rather than a don't-build-it argument,... or whatever,... it should be settle before anything is built. Metrolinx has lots of ideas for regional transit, but no ideas on how to fund them or who's paying,... Well, that's like me having a great idea on me getting a Bentley but with no way to fund it!

You think the Feds would pick up 2 third of the cost? What you smoking? This is Toronto,... NOT Montreal!

$2.8 billion 8.6 km 6 station Spadina subway extension from Downsview to Vaughan Costco Centre breaks down like this: Ontario $1.1 BILLION + Canada $698 million + Toronto $600 milion + York Region $400 million York Region will benefit the most,... but notice they're chipping in the least!
http://www.thestar.com/article/538111

Here's the Sheppard Subway line cost just before they started construction in March 1997 with a total projected cost to be $875 million (of which the Provincial Share was $571 million, Metro (Toronto) Share $297 million and the Federal Share at $7 million,... yes, that's right $7 million from the Feds,.. it's not a typo,... it's more like the price of a house in Bridal Path!,... Dude, that doesn't even cover the Federal GST on the Sheppard Subway line!

Don't hold your breathe thinking the Feds will chip in big time for the Yonge Subway extension. BTW, when Toronto said it wants those multi-billion dollar conditions for the Yonge Subway extension,... that means Toronto isn't chipping in either.

 

[xstatik]

"Here's the Sheppard Subway line cost just before they started construction in March 1997 with a total projected cost to be $875 million (of which the Provincial Share was $571 million, Metro (Toronto) Share $297 million and the Federal Share at $7 million,... yes, that's right $7 million from the Feds,.. it's not a typo,... it's more like the price of a house in Bridal Path!,... Dude, that doesn't even cover the Federal GST on the Sheppard Subway line!.

Let's not forget who was the federal government at that time! (it was the Liberals for all of you with short memories)

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Originally Posted by sunnyraytoronto
Yonge subway line is already at 100% capacity. Instead of always dumping their passengers at Finch why don't York Region dump them at Downsview on the Spadina line, which is 80% capacity.

I don't understand your question. You are asking why buses coming down Yonge Street don't reroute and go way out of their way in order to load-balance subway station traffic? And why YRT buses, as opposed to TTC buses, don't adopt this foolish approach in particular?

Presumably, neither YRT or TTC buses drive kilometres out of their way to dump bus riders at distant stations because it would be inefficient, a waste of time, environmentally silly, and make little sense. They seem to think that the goal of a public transit system is to get people where they're going.

I'm pretty sure I've misunderstood, so do tell. As to the bus bays, though, I am dubious.

Why did the $2.8 billion 8.6 km 6 station Spadina subway extension from Downsview to Vaughan Costco Centre get funding back in 2004? Why were they extending the Spadina subway line back then instead of the much more better utilized Yonge Subway line???

The main reason they used to justify extending the Spadina subway line to the middle of nowhere in Vaughan Costco Centre instead of extending Yonge was that Yonge line was already operating at 100% capacity and they can't fit anymore people onto it! While Spadina line was 80% capacity and York Region would be diverting buses away from the Yonge line and onto the Spadina line to help make the Spadina line feasible!!!

To help get funding for the Spadina Subway extension into York Region and to make the Spadina Subway extension WORK, York Region agreed to DIVERT some of their buses off the already 100% capacity Yonge Subway line and onto the Spadina subway line,.. Yes York Region already agreed that their bus would "reroute and go way out of their way in order to load-balance subway station traffic"!!! That was how they manage to convince various governments to fund the Spadina Subway extension into York Region.

Since then, the TTC will improve capacity on the Yonge subway line with ATC/ATO and new trains,... but all these increase in capacity on the Yonge subway line will still NOT be able to handle the anticipated increase in volume from extending the Yonge subway line into Richmond Hill Centre.

Ask yourself this,... if the $2.4 billion 6.8 km 6 station Yonge subway extension from Finch to Richmond Hill Centre goes ahead,... who will be riding the Spadina Subway extension??? Why are we now spending $2.8 Billion of taxpayer money on a (Spadina) subway extension nobody would use???

Look at that mega 28 bay underground bus terminal they have plan for Steeles station,... look at the other 28 bay bus terminal they have plan for Richmond Hill Centre station,... does this look like York Region is planning on diverting buses off Yonge and onto the Spadina subway extension????