Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It absolutely is that bad. This is why I want to see the TTC study a Don Mills Subway to Finch (extension of Relief Line). It really could help to free up a significant amount of space on Yonge by diverting away riders coming from the east. There's not much else I can think of that would help to relieve the Yonge crowding problems.

- Bloor Danforth extension to McCowan and Finch.

- Maybe bring the DRL west up Dixon from eglinton/weston. Then turn north on Kipling and go to Kipling and Finch. We need more north south transit.

- Jane LRT to Vaughan?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

ATC+ TRs will add 10% capacity, which will be good for all of a few years.

We'll need to explore upgrading Richmond Hill GO, though Metrolinx seems reluctant to do that (I don't disagree with them). Perhaps they could double track it and add more stations. Though I'm not at all sure if Union could deal with the extra trains and it won't help at all to reduce Yonge crowding at all from their current levels..

The Don Mills Subway would be our last solution. My educated guess is that it could help to relieve Yonge between Finch and Eglinton by at most 15%. After that I'm not sure what else could be done to relieve crowding on Yonge.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

ATC+ TRs will add 10% capacity, which will be good for all of a few years.

We'll need to explore upgrading Richmond Hill GO, though Metrolinx seems reluctant to do that (I don't disagree with them). Perhaps they could double track it and add more stations. Though I'm not at all sure if Union could deal with the extra trains and it won't help at all to reduce Yonge crowding at all from their current levels..

The Don Mills Subway would be our last solution. My educated guess is that it could help to relieve Yonge between Finch and Eglinton by at most 15%. After that I'm not sure what else could be done to relieve crowding on Yonge.

Our crowding comes from a lack of north south transit. The stuff I said above should help.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

- Bloor Danforth extension to McCowan and Finch.

Even to Sheppard it will help to divert some (not enough) riders originating in Markham away from Yonge. If we want more relief, we'll have to build something west of there.

- Maybe bring the DRL west up Dixon from eglinton/weston. Then turn north on Kipling and go to Kipling and Finch. We need more north south transit.

- Jane LRT to Vaughan?

The Jane LRT + Eglinton West LRT + Finch West will be more than sufficient. A subway that far northwest wouldn't have very much usage.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I hadn't taken the Yonge line south in a while and then got on at Finch and gave it a shot.. By Sheppard it was VERY crowded and by Eglinton it was definitely at capacity. It felt like someone got on for everyone who got off at Bloor and didn't really ease until Queen. It was nigh unbearable and if I hadn't got on at Finch and had a seat where I could put my head down and read, I probably would have been looking for an escape route.

I know it's not possible but in my dream world, you dig a parallel tunnel (you don't even need two - just one that changes direction at rush hour!) and use it as an express line that, say, stops at Finch/Sheppard/Eg/St. Clair/Bloor etc.. Obviously the DRL will help but I am curious what the differences will actually look like upstream.

But overall, yes, I agree the opening of the Spadina extension and implementation of ATC will buy a bit of breathing room. It's why I think the Yonge extension can go now, so long as the DRL is in the pipe right behind it. I don't support waiting on the DRL given how Toronto has dropped the ball on it and transit in general.

GO expansion will help, but only a bit. You can't add many more stations given the routing. It mostly goes through the Don Valley and past the backs of some subdivisions and it's different from lines like the Lakeshore in that respect. It's always going to be for getting to/from Union Station and little else.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I hadn't taken the Yonge line south in a while and then got on at Finch and gave it a shot.. By Sheppard it was VERY crowded and by Eglinton it was definitely at capacity. It felt like someone got on for everyone who got off at Bloor and didn't really ease until Queen. It was nigh unbearable and if I hadn't got on at Finch and had a seat where I could put my head down and read, I probably would have been looking for an escape route.

I know it's not possible but in my dream world, you dig a parallel tunnel (you don't even need two - just one that changes direction at rush hour!) and use it as an express line that, say, stops at Finch/Sheppard/Eg/St. Clair/Bloor etc.. Obviously the DRL will help but I am curious what the differences will actually look like upstream.

But overall, yes, I agree the opening of the Spadina extension and implementation of ATC will buy a bit of breathing room. It's why I think the Yonge extension can go now, so long as the DRL is in the pipe right behind it. I don't support waiting on the DRL given how Toronto has dropped the ball on it and transit in general.

GO expansion will help, but only a bit. You can't add many more stations given the routing. It mostly goes through the Don Valley and past the backs of some subdivisions and it's different from lines like the Lakeshore in that respect. It's always going to be for getting to/from Union Station and little else.

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/20253-Should-we-add-two-more-track-to-the-subway-system

A go station at dupont would help a lot though.

 

[CITY_LOVER]

Hi,

I haven't had a chance to go through everything but just thought I would put the following out there to gauge responses from forum members:

I'm wondering if there are plans to improve the links between the different lines that are proposed and/or are under construction to provide a more seamless ride for transit users? For example, connecting Finch West LRT and Shepperd East LRT could create one seamless line with the Shepperd East LRT line running north at Don Mills from Shepperd all the way to Finch and then turn west and run all the way to Humber College on Finch.

The Shepperd subway should be extended westward to connect with the Downsview line so there is a link to both legs of the YUS line (i.e. it'll become less of a stub).

With Don Mills station becoming an important link/transfer-point, the DRL should start here (so it is connected to the Shepperd/Finch LRT and the Shepperd subway), go south via Pape through the financial district and king west district and come back north via Dundas West and connect to Jane Street, where it can connect to the future Jane LRT.

With the plan for Jane LRT to connect with Finch LRT, the connection of Jane LRT to the so-called 'downtown relief line' (as per my point above) would enable one massive transit loop covering outer-Toronto via the downtown. This would greatly improve transport in any direction in the city of Toronto, and would particularly help lower-income outer-ring suburbs and highly-dense inner-city suburbs.

This would be in addition to expanding Eglinton crosstown all the way to the airport.

The city of Toronto would then have a one large seamless LRT line covering the north (Shepperd linked in with Finch), a large seamless line covering central Toronto (Eglinton crosstown), the existing south subway line (Bloor-Danforth) and two loop lines - the existing inner Yonge-University-Spadina subway and the new Don Mills-Downtown-Jane line.

I'm assuming that the DRL will be using the LRVs that Eglinton and Shepperd are planning to use so it can be connected to Jane and Don Mills (the only thing being that the DRL portion would be running underground). The current proposal for the DRL is not heavy-rail like the existing subways is it?

Any comments on whether this idea or something similar is being considered and what the time-frame would like should this type of idea materialize? I'm not sure what the cost would be but it should be possible within the $50B 'Big Move' plans I would think?

Thanks in advance.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I hadn't taken the Yonge line south in a while and then got on at Finch and gave it a shot.. By Sheppard it was VERY crowded and by Eglinton it was definitely at capacity. It felt like someone got on for everyone who got off at Bloor and didn't really ease until Queen. It was nigh unbearable and if I hadn't got on at Finch and had a seat where I could put my head down and read, I probably would have been looking for an escape route.

I know it's not possible but in my dream world, you dig a parallel tunnel (you don't even need two - just one that changes direction at rush hour!) and use it as an express line that, say, stops at Finch/Sheppard/Eg/St. Clair/Bloor etc.. Obviously the DRL will help but I am curious what the differences will actually look like upstream.

I strongly feel that this is what will need to happen in the very long term. Lets be honest, the Toronto Rockets, DRL, a potential Don Mills Subway and any upgrades to the Richmond Hill GO line are just be buying us time. Unless there is a dramatic shift in travel patterns, Yonge ridership will continue to increase and we eventually will come to a point where there are no more band-aid solutions we can apply. The ultimate solution will be some sort of express subway running parallel to Yonge. My proposal is to keep the Yonge Subway north of Eglinton exactly as it is. Then have that turn into an express subway, with stations only at St. Clair, Bloor-Yonge, King and Union. Another parallel line will continue to service Davisville, St. Clair, Summerhill, Bloor-Yonge, Wellesley, College, Dundas, Queen, King and Union Stations.

Of course this is in the very long term. 40+ years.

Large

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Back to the Yonge North extension: I've been to a transit town hall at Yonge & Eg, Crosstown meetings, as well as some condo proposal meetings. One thing I hear a lot is that people complain that they can't get onto the Yonge line southbound in the morning until at least a couple of trains pass. The Yonge Extension will definitely have some opposition from people going south further down the line.

I'm lucky enough at the moment not to need to go south during rush hour. Also in my field of work hours are usually flexible, so I'm not too worried. I know that if you go later than 9 there isn't problem.

My question is, is it really as bad as they say? Or are they over-exaggerating since they oppose new condo development?
Even if you have to wait a few trains, the trains come every 2-3 min right? So theoretically it shouldn't be a huge wait?
Have you experienced that WisiaHD?

I figure that hopefully before it becomes a serious problem, the crosstown will be completed, making it easier to go to Eg West, then take the Spadina line south.

Occasionally I've squeezed into the subway only to be pushed back out I admit.

In that case you only have to wait for 1 train to pass and the next is usually empty. If you are lucky you arrive at the station for the second train which is usually much emptier. Its a bad situation but not much different from elsewhere on the line I suspect, its not at peak capacity yet. It only gets really bad and ugly once you hit Bloor.

The trains come quick enough that I can't complain about the wait time. 2-3 minutes is more like 3-4 minutes and feels longer when you are trying to make 8am classes downtown and with the usual number of delays every morning. It will get better when the tracks between St. Clair and Eglinton are repaired in the spring.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Hi,

I haven't had a chance to go through everything but just thought I would put the following out there to gauge responses from forum members:

I responded in the fantacy map thread. That's where this discussion belongs.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I strongly feel that this is what will need to happen in the very long term. Lets be honest, the Toronto Rockets, DRL, a potential Don Mills Subway and any upgrades to the Richmond Hill GO line are just be buying us time. Unless there is a dramatic shift in travel patterns, Yonge ridership will continue to increase and we eventually will come to a point where there are no more band-aid solutions we can apply. The ultimate solution will be some sort of express subway running parallel to Yonge. My proposal is to keep the Yonge Subway north of Eglinton exactly as it is. Then have that turn into an express subway, with stations only at St. Clair, Bloor-Yonge, King and Union. Another parallel line will continue to service Davisville, St. Clair, Summerhill, Bloor-Yonge, Wellesley, College, Dundas, Queen, King and Union Stations.

Of course this is in the very long term. 40+ years.

An express route should hit Dundas station. Dundas seems like the busiest station between Bloor and Union in my experience. Access to Ryerson, Dundas Streetcars, Eaton Center and more. (edit: I checked your map and that seems to be what you have done, contrary to your post.)

Yah it seems like an express line is the way to go eventually. It isn't even that bad to get on the express line even if it misses your target station as you can just get off and take the next non-express train north/south. It would probably still be quicker than making stops at Rosedale/Summerhill/Lawrence/York Mills etc..

Does Eglinton have the space to accommodate the transition of trains to the express line? Unless it happens somewhere in the Davisville train yards, I think you are going to have to put it further north like at Finch.

----
Also an unrelated question, would converting the Spadina streetcar into an LRT do much to relieving morning congestion? I've seen the idea thrown around in the Fantasy Map thread a few times.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Yonge Express should be a separate line, with the downtown part going under Bay.

 

[ehlow]

Occasionally I've squeezed into the subway only to be pushed back out I admit.

In that case you only have to wait for 1 train to pass and the next is usually empty. If you are lucky you arrive at the station for the second train which is usually much emptier. Its a bad situation but not much different from elsewhere on the line I suspect, its not at peak capacity yet. It only gets really bad and ugly once you hit Bloor.

The trains come quick enough that I can't complain about the wait time. 2-3 minutes is more like 3-4 minutes and feels longer when you are trying to make 8am classes downtown and with the usual number of delays every morning. It will get better when the tracks between St. Clair and Eglinton are repaired in the spring.

Interesting, so you sometimes have to wait for 1 train to pass. To me that doesn't sound terrible.. (although obviously DRL & other North-South lines are needed). Thanks for sharing.

Yeah I can't wait for the St. Clair to Eglinton track repair since it's supposed to make that stretch faster.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I find it is always better to walk to the end of the platforms, the end cars are never as busy. Though I typically get on at Finch, I have never seen anyone struggle to board before Bloor-Yonge on the tail or front ends of the train.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Interesting, so you sometimes have to wait for 1 train to pass. To me that doesn't sound terrible.. (although obviously DRL & other North-South lines are needed). Thanks for sharing.

This is for the current moment though. The second train is usually pretty packed itself especially after St. Clair, and has a tendency of being flooded by B-D people that couldn't get on the first train. With current growth trends and the opening of the Crosstown and maybe the YNSE, it will get worse. The time to plan relief for the line is now, before the YUS is at peak north and south of Bloor too.

Yeah I can't wait for the St. Clair to Eglinton track repair since it's supposed to make that stretch faster.

I don't look forward to it. Shuttle buses on Yonge between Eglinton and St. Clair? I'll have to begin my commute an extra 20 minutes earlier for like two months.

Has the TTC ever stated what they are going to do to move passengers in the interim? I suspect converting one lane on Yonge between Eglinton and St. Clair for shuttle buses would be the logical solution. How will that work though, with both north and south bound buses?