Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[drum118]

If the Subway was extended to Hwy 7 and at a junction point with the Go Train, could they not offer a reduced rate for Go trips to Union compared to Subway rates? If they offered a 30% discount for trips to the core, wouldn't that divert much of the traffic onto the go line? ave a buck and get a quicker trip. shoulld be an easy sell.

GO would not reduce its rates to compete with TTC.

The big issue now and will be if this extension goes to RHC, why can't I get a seat at Sheppard or Eglinton when my taxes funds this line while the 905 doesn't?

Like other have said in the past and I have said it at the TTC commissioner meetings in the past, the extension to RHC cannot proceed until the DRL is built either to Don Mills Station or better still Steeles.

Once you build that DRL, then you will reduce the load capacity on the Yonge Line by 30%. Based on what being built on Yonge now and what been plan for the next 20 years, we will be back to where we are today. At the same time, the Bloor interchange still has to be rebuilt even if the DRL is built.

At Some point, a 2nd Yonge line is going have to be built to carry the excess ridership and it has to go under the existing one and be very costly to build it. Building this 2nd line, you build it as an express line that will have very few stations on it.

The big issues for GO, are they willing to spend big bucks to upgrade the RH Line that train can travel faster on the line as well adding more tracks? Currently, it will cost $1.2B to upgrade the RH line for EMU all day service with higher speed. This will shave 5-10 minutes off the current trip.

Until the new TR deals with the excess time to open doors, headway will increase over what out there today. This mean you will have less train on the line and still leaving riders at station, since the train will be cattle cars in the first place.

The one issue that is still not been looked at, is the decrease of traffic on the road. By building more rail lines and subways out into the 905, we are moving the problem from one location to another. Doing this free space up in Toronto for a short time, as that free up space will be used by either existing residents or new ones to the city.

As for the super dubber bus cathedral terminal at Steeles, that is an over kill station and the old thinking of TTC at work. There is no need for a terminal of this size now or in the future.

I challenge those who call for this line to go to RHC, spend this year walking the line from top to bottom and looked at what exist today along the line and look at the plan development for it. At the same time, look at ridership for various stations at various times 7 days a week to see what the current ridership is having on those stations now. Spend time looking at the bus on/off loading north of Steeles as well south of it to Finch.

Once you do these thing, then you will get a real feel and a vision of what there today and what will be there 20+ years from now.

Given the fact that I have follow dozens of projects by photographing them over the years on Yonge St, as well walked the full length spread over time, I can see the big train coming down the road now without going to RHC.

Going to RHC, you will move a few 1,000's car north of Steeles from Finch and gain next to no new riders by doing so.

Until the DRL is built, any extension north of Steeles is on the back-burner.

 

[unimaginative2]

I agree with you that the DRL is definitely key to extending the Yonge Line north. In fact, the DRL should run to at least Don Mills and Eglinton to provide necessary relief to the Yonge Line north of Bloor.

GO would not reduce its rates to compete with TTC.

We need to get out of this silly mentality of separate systems competing. It should be one fare, plain and simple. Once you get out there, it should be zone fares.

The big issue now and will be if this extension goes to RHC, why can't I get a seat at Sheppard or Eglinton when my taxes funds this line while the 905 doesn't?

York Region is paying for the municipal share within its boundaries and the province is paying most of the tab anyway. That means people living in Kenora who might never even see the Yonge Subway are paying just as much as someone living at Yonge and Eglinton.

Financial arguments aside, you're absolutely right that the crowding on the Yonge Line is ludicrous. We needed a parallel eastern route decades ago. The DRL on Don Mills has so much potential: it can be easily elevated so that it would be cheap to build, it would relieve the Yonge Line, it would relieve crowded east-west bus routes, and it would dramatically shorten travel time to the subway for people on those routes.

 

[Disparishun]

easy answer. Yonge may have more ridership, but look at the map, Yonge line simply won't be able to handle that many people from the middle of nowhere.

Oh, kkgg7. How many people can possibly be from the middle of nowhere? I mean, it's the middle of nowhere! You're not making any sense.

I always find it odd when people complain that extending the Bloor line to Square One would make it too long. But no one says the same about Yonge or Spadina even though I'm the YUS is longer than BD and is undergoing extension now at one end and possibly the other in the future.

Kipling to Kennedy is 23.1 km. Square One to Kennedy is 34.3 km.

Union to Finch is 15.1 km. Union to RHC is 22 km.

Extending the Yonge line to RHC would still leave it shorter than the Bloor-Danforth line. Extending the Bloor-Danforth line to Square One would leave it more than double the length of the Yonge line.

If the Subway was extended to Hwy 7 and at a junction point with the Go Train, could they not offer a reduced rate for Go trips to Union compared to Subway rates?

My view is that they ought simply to charge a flat fee by distance that is equal across the board. Let people take the mode and route that makes the most sense for their trip. Where there is a mis-alignment between where people go and where modes and routes let them go, is where we need better transit.

Exactly, on your latter point. And it's not just the Centerpoint lots: there are all kinds of Taco Bells and little strip malls in the area that could easily be bought for peanuts for a bus terminal. If the TTC were looking ahead, they could even partner with a developer to build a terminal and condo in one project. Or, if Centerpoint won't lose the parking, they could build a deck for them above for a few million.

This is arguing that the decision to site easily-torn-down structures and displacable tenants on these land banks reflects a low valuation for the underlying land. That's not correct. Landowners in this corridor understand very well the value of their properties, which is precisely why they are using them as land banks rather than permanent uses. If you really think that land at Yonge and Steeles can be had for peanuts -- well, I suggest you go out and buy some quickly. Everyone else is waiting for the subways and other plans which have been just around the corner for twenty years or so now. Those car dealerships and parking lots? Not a long-term strategy. Good tenants pending a future land sale, though.

I agree with you that the DRL is definitely key to extending the Yonge Line north. In fact, the DRL should run to at least Don Mills and Eglinton to provide necessary relief to the Yonge Line north of Bloor.

Forgive me, but that sounds a bit silly. When did Don Mills and Eglinton become part of downtown? The GO train lines are already there. Corridors are allocated, rights of way are in place. Serving locations like Don Mills and Eglinton, and northwards, is most economically done by LRT-izing the GO line and adding stations along major corridors, in my view. Not simple -- but a lot simpler than what you propose.

The big issue now and will be if this extension goes to RHC, why can't I get a seat at Sheppard or Eglinton when my taxes funds this line while the 905 doesn't?

Um, because there isn't enough transit to serve Sheppard and Eglinton and other points in the city? Separately, your "my taxes funds all those freeloading out-of-town seat-stealers" line cannot be right -- ticket prices pay more of each extra rider's cost than do the property taxes you pay as a Toronto homeowner, and so do the taxes paid by the employers of those seat-stealers. In fact, when you take into account their employers' taxes and the money they spend while working in the municipality, they're subsidizing you. Thank one sometime.

At Some point, a 2nd Yonge line is going have to be built to carry the excess ridership and it has to go under the existing one and be very costly to build it. Building this 2nd line, you build it as an express line that will have very few stations on it.

The big issues for GO, are they willing to spend big bucks to upgrade the RH Line that train can travel faster on the line as well adding more tracks? Currently, it will cost $1.2B to upgrade the RH line for EMU all day service with higher speed. This will shave 5-10 minutes off the current trip.

Which do you think would be more expensive: building a second underground Yonge line all the way up the city, or upgrading the RH Line (including added stop at Eglinton, colocating GO and TTC stations, and integrated fare-by-distance) to create an eastern-aligned north-south corridor?

When you talk about shaving 5-10 minutes, I'm not sure what you mean or where -- those coming from parts east would disagree, no doubt -- but pretty sure that Yonge does not need to be the only north-south axis for rapid transit in this city.

 

[unimaginative2]

This is arguing that the decision to site easily-torn-down structures and displacable tenants on these land banks reflects a low valuation for the underlying land. That's not correct. Landowners in this corridor understand very well the value of their properties, which is precisely why they are using them as land banks rather than permanent uses. If you really think that land at Yonge and Steeles can be had for peanuts -- well, I suggest you go out and buy some quickly. Everyone else is waiting for the subways and other plans which have been just around the corner for twenty years or so now. Those car dealerships and parking lots? Not a long-term strategy. Good tenants pending a future land sale, though.

I'm not saying that the land is cheap. I'm saying that it will cost a hell of a lot less than the $100 million+ it would take to build that underground bus hangar. Not to mention the fact that the TTC could then sell development rights over top and likely recover most or all of the cost of the land.

Forgive me, but that sounds a bit silly. When did Don Mills and Eglinton become part of downtown? The GO train lines are already there. Corridors are allocated, rights of way are in place. Serving locations like Don Mills and Eglinton, and northwards, is most economically done by LRT-izing the GO line and adding stations along major corridors, in my view. Not simple -- but a lot simpler than what you propose.

Sorry...what does Don Mills and Eglinton being part of downtown have to do with anything? Look, even Steve Munro endorses running the DRL subway up to Don Mills and Eglinton. It would dramatically improve the accessibility of a dense but poorly-served neighbourhood while providing much-needed relief for the Yonge Subway north of Bloor.

When you say LRT-izing, I assume you're talking about serious RER-style/S-Bahn-style regional rail and not running streetcars down the rail corridor. I completely agree that regional rail in the current GO corridors would be incredibly valuable but the Richmond Hill corridor isn't really all that useful for local service in that area. It's very meandering, which makes it slow, and it's located way down in a valley, which makes it very difficult to access. An elevated subway on Overlea and Don Mills would provide high-quality rapid transit service to that densely-populated area and would provide good connections with all of the east-west bus routes.

 

[GenerationW]

Like other have said in the past and I have said it at the TTC commissioner meetings in the past, the extension to RHC cannot proceed until the DRL is built either to Don Mills Station or better still Steeles.

If in theory York Region were to secure funding for Yonge but Toronto could not for a DRL, then what would stop Yonge from proceeding? I don't see how Toronto could prevent an extension that had federal, provincial, and regional support, and, no doubt, a fair bit of support by Toronto Councilors.

Not to mention that a DRL built in one shot all the way up to Don Mills Stn would require a huge commitment from both Queen's Park and Ottawa. And good luck getting Ottawa under Harper to fund both Yonge and the DRL at the same time.

Until the DRL is built, any extension north of Steeles is on the back-burner.

Let's examine that:
-York region already got its way once regarding subways (Spadina) despite Toronto's objections
-last I checked Yonge is in Metrolinx's 15-year plan; the DRL is further back in the 25-year plan
-Yonge gained sizable momentum once (2009) before financial realities set in, and York Region is still eager for this extension

Mr. TTC Commissioner can say what he wants, but I think he's got his head in the sand if he really believes Yonge can't be built without a DRL.

 

[Ervin]

Until the DRL is built, any extension north of Steeles is on the back-burner.

This is simply absurd. Considering how cash strapped the TTC is, they're far more concerned with increasing ridership (and thus revenue) than concerning themselves with how crowded the trains may be. This is especially considering they're already bringing in new trains and upgrading Yonge-Bloor just to tackle the issue of crowding. The future Yonge extension was a major motivation for the capacity increases. Also as others have said, the DLR is a major financial undertaking with little revenue return, so it's very unfeasible to build something like the DLR before building something that can bring in a lot of new revenue.

 

[wopchop]

Mr. TTC Commissioner can say what he wants, but I think he's got his head in the sand if he really believes Yonge can't be built without a DRL.

While this is true, it also ignores the fact that the Yonge Line is already practically useless at prime hours for those of us who live between Bloor Station and Eglinton Station. A Yonge extension will only exacerbate this problem, and probably push it further up the line, as well.

Sadly, a DRL to Pape won't even fix this problem. Sure, it'll relieve crowding at Bloor-Yonge, but it won't significantly relieve crowding further North until it reaches at least Don Mills & Eglinton.

 

[nfitz]

... so it's very unfeasible to build something like the DLR before building something that can bring in a lot of new revenue.

Extending the Yonge line isn't going to bring in a lot of new revenue. Most of the riders who are using it are already paying their $2.60 ... so there is no new revenue. And as the line is already near capacity, there isn't a lot of new revenue you could squeeze on.

This is simply absurd.

My thoughts exactly!

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Let's examine that:
-York region already got its way once regarding subways (Spadina) despite Toronto's objections
-last I checked Yonge is in Metrolinx's 15-year plan; the DRL is further back in the 25-year plan
-Yonge gained sizable momentum once (2009) before financial realities set in, and York Region is still eager for this extension

Mr. TTC Commissioner can say what he wants, but I think he's got his head in the sand if he really believes Yonge can't be built without a DRL.

More to the point the EA for Yonge is already done and DRL (as I've said before) is very alive on these forums and barely a pencil line on a map anywhere else.

The ridership debate about Yonge is always amusing as it veers between those who think it will generate almost no new ridership and those who think it will overwhelm the system, necessitating the DRL.

There will be huge development at Yonge/7. As soon as the subway is approved you'll see developments bigger than what's going on at Sheppard/Leslie now, so ridership is not an issue.

I suppose we could debate whether it's worth $3 billion but as someone who drives the Yonge/Steeles are all the time I think it's more than worth it to get those hundreds of bosses off the road even if there was ZERO new ridership. As Rob Ford would tell you, moving all that transit underground helps cars move better. It's also far more efficient for the thousands of commuters we know drive from York Region down to Finch already. I stand to be corrected but I find it hard to imagine there is anywhere in the GTA that's as inefficiently served as the 7-->Finch corridor where there's literally a bus or two every minute.

(And, speaking of inefficiency, someone above said they should extend the subway to Steeles and then do LRT to 7. So, someone would have to transfer at Steeles to LRT, then transfer to BRT to go north of 7? That's not a plan. And That's not a reason to stop the subway 2 km short of a major terminal. Look again at the map a few pages back.)

If I had, say $10-billion, I would happily approve the Yonge and DRL lines simulatneously. But with scarce money and Yonge's plans further along, I think that's where you go.

All you have to do is look at Toronto now to see what happens when you hem and haw over transit. You have to take what you can get and you don't kill a viable extension because there's another hypothetical one that's also necessary. The whole system is years behind and all these things should be built but NOT-building while haggling over details it's what's killed Toronto for years and years and had repurcussions across the GTA (yes, including waaaaaay over on the other side of Steeles).

 

[rbt]

The ridership debate about Yonge is always amusing as it veers between those who think it will generate almost no new ridership and those who think it will overwhelm the system, necessitating the DRL.

The real answer is that both of these are true.

Ridership on Yonge will grow very little from an extension due to Yonge reaching capcity. FYI, Yonge will reach capacity without an extension too if it isn't already over-capacity*.

If the extension is successful in adding 100,000 people to Yonge, folks at Eglinton will drive because they cannot get on the train. Net additions during peak periods will be close to zero and Yonge will be well over capacity. Latent (unserved) demand will be huge.


* Raise your hand if you've avoided Yonge south of Bloor during peak periods and would gladly take it at other times of the day? This is a strong indication that Yonge is at capacity for our culture/local pesonal space requirements.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

Living at Bay and Bloor and working at King and Bay, well, let's just say I'm glad I work non-traditional hours as the subway is a breeze at 10:15 in the morning, and 7:15 in the evening.

And rbt is absolutely correct, a Yonge extension *will* result in more people south of Eglinton driving, I know many people who do this already (or walk, or bike, etc.). And anyone who thinks a Yonge extension won't attract new ridership is naive, as all subway extensions in this city have done so. It will in Yonge's case, and will make the Yonge line pretty much unusable south of Sheppard barring a DRL, or other north-south additional options (upgraded GO Richmond Hill line for example), or some sort of express bus on the DVP. The extension is necessary, but not before other conditions are met.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I cannot belive i am about to agree with gen w and ervin. Truth is the drl should be the prioritybut apparantly the ea is done. So that will be done first I don't see why people downtown should pay for subway they won't get the chance to use. that subway will be full by york mills

 

[BMO]

Exactly, on your latter point. And it's not just the Centerpoint lots: there are all kinds of Taco Bells and little strip malls in the area that could easily be bought for peanuts for a bus terminal. If the TTC were looking ahead, they could even partner with a developer to build a terminal and condo in one project. Or, if Centerpoint won't lose the parking, they could build a deck for them above for a few million. That underground bus hangar would cost well into the nine figures at TTC prices.

As for the possibility of a mid-way funding cut, it hardly makes sense to add a hundred million or more to the cost of a project "just in case" if you're worried about funding. Not to mention the fact that it's an entirely York Region-driven project and there's no way that it would be built without the section north of Steeles.

I'm sure there are provisions with the underground bus bay to be converted to LRT station platform in the future, as the Steeles is planned to have higher order transit by 2031. A slew of YRT buses would still go to Steeles, as there is no room for a bus bay/ terminal at Clark. I'm sure in the long-run building the bus bay underground will ultimately be better. Just look at Finch Station today where often at rush hour, buses are queued up for tens of minutes at a time before getting on their way because they have to turn into and out of the bus bay. It's also important to note the obvious developmental potential at Yonge and Steeles, (but this could still be achieved with a bus bay like York Mills).

 

[Dan416]

I'm one of the people who first started pushing for GO to Square One instead of a Bloor-Danforth extension, and I have always said the same thing about the Spadina extension to Vaughan.

You also ignore the fact that:
- Getting downtown by BD requires a transfer, which is not necessary on the YUS.
- BD has closer stop spacing than the YUS (outside downtown), making the trip even longer.
- The Milton line could potentially offer intermediate TWO points to transfer to the subway line, while a GO line to Vaughan would offer one, and to Richmond Hill would offer zero. This means that a Milton line would offer quicker trips for BOTH those headed to UofT/Yorkville AND those headed downtown.

It bugs me when I see that "improve the Milton line" seems to have become a proposal for people who don't want to see the 905 get subway extensions. "Improve the Milton line" should be a rallying call for people who think that a BD line ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH for Mississauga. Mississauga has three-quarters of a million people (over three times the size of Vaughan)! Most of them live west of Hurontario! It's a big place and a BD line will not do nearly enough!

Make your choice:
- Dedicated tracks on the Milton line, allowing trains to run every 5 minutes (if needed), serving Meadowvale and Streetsville and Erindale and Cooksville and Dundas East and Kipling, then running express to Downtown Toronto with only one or two intermediate stops? (Essentially the Metrolinx plan.) Approx travel time from Cooksville to downtown: 30 mins. Fares: Same as local transit due to fare integration. Capacity: sufficient.
- Extend the Bloor-Danforth line. Force transit users west of Hurontario to continue to take a bus to Square One. Squeeze on an overloaded Bloor-Danforth train when you make the required transfer at St. George on the trip home. (What Corescanti prefers for some reason) Approx travel time from Cooksville to downtown: 50 mins. Capacity: Insufficient.

Choose regional rail if you want Mississauga to grow and intensify because it's within transit commuting distance of from the whole western GTA. Choose a BD extension if you want the status quo, but just a little bit faster.

I never said ONLY a BD extension. I advocate for both.

However I think a BD extension is far more realistic in the short-term than a Milton diversion to MCC.

 

[Dan416]

Kipling to Kennedy is 23.1 km. Square One to Kennedy is 34.3 km.

Union to Finch is 15.1 km. Union to RHC is 22 km.

Extending the Yonge line to RHC would still leave it shorter than the Bloor-Danforth line. Extending the Bloor-Danforth line to Square One would leave it more than double the length of the Yonge line.

Why are you comparing Kipling/Square One to Kennedy, but Finch/RHC only to Union?

You should either compare: Kipling/Square One to Yonge/Bloor or Finch/RHC to Downsview/VCC.

If we're going to consider Bloor-Danforth as one line, then we should consider Yonge-University-Spadina as one line as well.