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Toronto Without Wires

wmedia

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Now that AI does a reasonable and quick job of removing unwanted objects from photos, I thought it might be fun to take some forum pics and remove the overhead clutter of wires.

Here's a quick test using Gemini. Feel free to add more.

Original pic of Queen & Church by @flonicky

Flonicky - With.jpg


Wires removed by Gemini.

Flonicky - Without 2.jpg
 
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Now that AI does a reasonable and quick job of removing unwanted objects from photos, I thought it might be fun to take some forum pics and remove the overhead clutter of wires.

Here's a quick test using Gemini. Feel free to add more.

Original pic of Queen & Church by @flonicky

View attachment 689069

Wires removed by Gemini.

View attachment 689071
Looks better with the wires.
 
Yes, there are 'wires, and then there are wires'. As long as one has streetcars one will have overhead wiring (yes, some can be undergrounded but never all of it.) There are also hydro wiring (both distribution and street lighting) plus phones and cable and traffic lights.

About a decade ago the St Lawrence Neighbourhood Association and the BIA worked with the City to put 90% of the wires on Front Street between Jarvis and Parliament underground. This was done during a complete reconstruction of Front and was paid for partly with Section 37 funds. There were no streetcar wires but we had lots of overhead street lighting wires (all buried and new 'Victorian' fixtures installed), some hydro distribution wires (almost all buried) some higher voltage hydro wires (at the Front/Sherboune intersection) and lots of traffic light wires - which were all buried. The few distribution wires not buried were serving buildings slated for redevelopment (what is now the Whitfield) and have now been buried. The major distribution wires at Front/Sherbourne were supposed to be buried by the developers of what is now Time & Space but the City (or Hydro) did not press them on this so they remain. The City's traffic light wires were all buried but subsequent installations (e.g. Front & Frederick) have (new) overhead wiring because the City is too poor to bury them (similar mess at Front & Scott).
 
First one isn't practical as you can't run streetcars without wires really.. but the second, absolutely should be happening.
Sure you can if they are battery power ib=n the first place. You can have a charger at various stops just like Europe and NA. Only have to go to Detroit to see no wires and chargers at stops,

Hydro should have place their wires underground decades ago as well when new development was taking place.
 
Sure you can if they are battery power ib=n the first place. You can have a charger at various stops just like Europe and NA. Only have to go to Detroit to see no wires and chargers at stops,

Hydro should have place their wires underground decades ago as well when new development was taking place.
Yes, of course there are 'wireless streetcars' but ours aren't and they will not be replaced for decades. With regard to hydro wiring, the three basic kinds are different, for many reasons.

1. High voltage lines. These are the bigger wires and are more expensive to bury and need underground vaults for the transformers etc.
2. Distribution wires bringing hydro to individual buildings - these are cheaper to bury but (though there are probably fewer subsequent problems with buried wiring) I think the Ontario Energy Board does not make it easy for hydro companies to do this as it means they need to charge higher rates to cover the initial cost.
3. Street lighting wires. These are, I think, the cheapest to bury but the Ontario Energy board does not allow the cost of doing so to be covered by rates [aid by all consumers. ALL costs of street lighting must be paid by the municipality and If a City wants its lighting wiring buried, they need to cover the cost - and we live in 'poor old Toronto'.

Yes, the City could do more to force developers to have all the wires adjacent to their developments buried at their cost but this really only works with large developments as you cannot have wiring going from above to below ground all over the place!
 
Sure you can if they are battery power ib=n the first place. You can have a charger at various stops just like Europe and NA. Only have to go to Detroit to see no wires and chargers at stops,

Hydro should have place their wires underground decades ago as well when new development was taking place.
Have those battery powered streetcars proven their long term reliability and sustainability?

Considering the abysmal performance of the e-buses, I would be extremely wary of battery powered streetcars. And frankly I don't see the point. You won't be getting any additional flexibility because they still need the tracks.
 
Have those battery powered streetcars proven their long term reliability and sustainability?

Considering the abysmal performance of the e-buses, I would be extremely wary of battery powered streetcars. And frankly I don't see the point. You won't be getting any additional flexibility because they still need the tracks.
I think the systems where the streetcars can only go a short distance without overhead work fine. The use battery power in these areas (usually in historic neighbourhoods or where there are cross streets). The streetcar then recharges its batteries when it reaches the next overhead section.
 
I find this process very interesting because my brain (and I suspect the brains of many folks who inhabit this forum) performs this process, in real-time, when I'm walking around towns and cities. I know the utility lines are there but I don't pay attention to them, just to the buildings and vehicles. My, arm-chair enthusiast's, understanding of what's going on is below.

There's a big difference between what your eyes actually "see" and what you perceive you are seeing. The neurons connected to the rods and cones in each eye receive two inverted images of the scene (upside down and left at right). These images are slightly different due to the distance between the eyes, and each has a small "hole" in it because there are no receptors where the optic nerve leaves the eye.

The brain inverts the images, fills in the small hole, and seamlessly assembles them into a single image of the scene. It then identifies objects your interested in (buildings in this case), assigns a 3D shape to them if it can, and focuses attention on these while lowering attention on the uninteresting things (the wires). This result is what we perceive that we "see".

Interestingly my brain at least, doesn't do this when looking at a photo of a street scene - hence why we need the AI to remove the pixels for us.
 
Burying cable during a major reconstruction is the smart thing to do but still costs more and somebody has to pay for that. Underground cable likely has lower maintenance costs but what cost does exist would be significantly higher. Our last house had buried utilities, installed by the developer, but there were a couple of spots where overhead wire ran between some street lights. The buried cable had somehow failed and the municipality was not willing to pay the cost of repairing/replacing the failed subterranean section.
 
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Have those battery powered streetcars proven their long term reliability and sustainability?

Considering the abysmal performance of the e-buses, I would be extremely wary of battery powered streetcars. And frankly I don't see the point. You won't be getting any additional flexibility because they still need the tracks.
If one looks at Detroit QLine it is wieless from the arena to the south of the line. The wireless section has 2 stations in each direction since they are the side of the road with chatgers while the rest of the stations don't have them to allow for topping up or need more powering that takes from 20 seconfs to 5 minutes depending on the need. The end station is a charging station.

It is wire north of the arena to the last north station.

It is wireless to the carhouse. Between the last station and the carhouse there is an charging station. The LRVs are plug in at the yard overnight.

Milwaukee has a wireless section at the south end with a charger at the end station and wire from the 3rd station to the north end.

Nice is wireless though the plaza area and wire rest of the route. It takes 10 seconds to do the change over.

I haven't seen in person other systems using batteries but been told there are charging stations along the route to top off if needed and charge at the end of the route.

As for buses, they have charging stations at the terminals and end of the route in Europe. Brampton is doing this as far as I known as I have seen the charger at the east end of hwy 7 as well at Mount Pleasant terminal along with the photo of Mount Pleasant

Manchester UK are converting their LRVs to batteries and will remove the ovrhead once all LRVs are converted.

As for doing this with TTC LRVs one only look at how long it took TTC to convert the existing OS to the current system to see TTC will take decades to go batteries that it will take one or two feel replacement before it is completely wireless.

The city should make it a requirment the wires be place underground when development takes place but Toronto hydro will be the major reason it will not happen. Look at St Clar when the ROW was being build how they fright not to do it as there was still life in the wires and poles until order to do so by council regardless the life cycle of the system, Even installing it was a fight.

If Europe can be 100% by 2030 with a few by 2035 due to size, there is no reason we cannot be 100% by 2040 or sooner. There area fair number systems in Europe now fully converted with a fair number this year. They are a few systems in NA that are at about 50% converted now with a number shooting for 2030 or sooner.
54845134044_a43087b788_o.jpg
 
If Europe can be 100% by 2030 with a few by 2035 due to size,
Huh? What are you talking about?

There is exactly 0% chance of every single European tramway network being converted to wireless by 2035.

All the examples you listed except for Manchester are at least partially wired, so they don't count. I'm asking for examples of a system that's completely wireless. Running for short distances on battery is not remotely the same. And I haven't been able to find any articles about Manchester going fully wireless, but if it is the case, I wouldn't expect any more reliability miracles than I would out of the e-buses. I think that crippling the reliability of your network due to a few NIMBYs who don't like wires is a pretty inane course of action.
 
Huh? What are you talking about?

There is exactly 0% chance of every single European tramway network being converted to wireless by 2035.

All the examples you listed except for Manchester are at least partially wired, so they don't count. I'm asking for examples of a system that's completely wireless. Running for short distances on battery is not remotely the same. And I haven't been able to find any articles about Manchester going fully wireless, but if it is the case, I wouldn't expect any more reliability miracles than I would out of the e-buses. I think that crippling the reliability of your network due to a few NIMBYs who don't like wires is a pretty inane course of action.
2030 is for buses with most new systems for LRTs been wire or partly battery. The rest are replacing real old equipment that are accessibly and longer LRVs using the existing system.

I have yet to see personal a full wireless line nor have I read about one. The only ones that are wireless are power from the ground which is basely wire. I remember reading something sometime ago about Manchester going wireles and no clue where I read it or when other sticking in my mind.

Battery power is still evolving and we have no idea what it will look like 10 years from now,

Indianapolis has two BRT with a 3rd being built using BYD 60' buses that have charging stations along the routes as well the ends.

I done know what you mean by short distance as some of those wireless sections are many miles apart. Yes there are lines that have a short distance but on a smaller scale to other lines.

The amoumt of riders on a bus/LRV effect how much power has to be used to move the riders.
 
2030 is for buses with most new systems for LRTs been wire or partly battery. The rest are replacing real old equipment that are accessibly and longer LRVs using the existing system.

I have yet to see personal a full wireless line nor have I read about one. The only ones that are wireless are power from the ground which is basely wire. I remember reading something sometime ago about Manchester going wireles and no clue where I read it or when other sticking in my mind.

Battery power is still evolving and we have no idea what it will look like 10 years from now,

Indianapolis has two BRT with a 3rd being built using BYD 60' buses that have charging stations along the routes as well the ends.

I done know what you mean by short distance as some of those wireless sections are many miles apart. Yes there are lines that have a short distance but on a smaller scale to other lines.

The amoumt of riders on a bus/LRV effect how much power has to be used to move the riders.
We have been talking about overhead wires (and the thread is entitled Toronto Without Wires ) so your posting here about e-buses did confuse :->
 

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