catcher_of_cats
Active Member
Great posting Mike. There are many projects in this city that this can be applied to.
Toronto Waterscapes | ?m | 30s | Biddington | Graziani + Corazza
- Thread starter Solaris
- Start date
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condocritic
Guest
Mike in TO, I appreciate your well thought out response.
Monarch does have a good reputation, but over the last 10 years, the quality of their products is definitely not what it used to be. I understand your side, and respect it. But this doesn't change what is clear: How can you pay for something that is based on a valuation of 4 years ahead? Do you really think the pricing for Nautilus & Waterscapes reflects the current market?
For the money you would pay for a unit in one of these new buildings (which won't be ready for 4 or more years) you can buy something larger in the already existing towers (Explorer, Voyageur 1 & 2) for a fraction of the price.
I am not arguing that builders need to make a profit in order for the project to make sense. I understand your argument. But in this specific case, Monarch got too greedy with their pricing.
Two years ago, the market was hot, Monarch wanted to capitalize on that and realized prices in the Breeze were too low. So, they cancel the project and give people their deposits back. Six months later, Nautilus is launched and prices are ridiculous. Honestly, who lined up to by a unit in Nautilus? A bunch of real estate agents? Why hasn't Nautilus sold out yet?
Beyond the Sea, which isn't even on the waterfront, sold out in what, a week? Who would pass up an opportunity to live on the water?
For Monarch's sake, I hope the buildings get built and the people are happy.
Monarch does have a good reputation, but over the last 10 years, the quality of their products is definitely not what it used to be. I understand your side, and respect it. But this doesn't change what is clear: How can you pay for something that is based on a valuation of 4 years ahead? Do you really think the pricing for Nautilus & Waterscapes reflects the current market?
For the money you would pay for a unit in one of these new buildings (which won't be ready for 4 or more years) you can buy something larger in the already existing towers (Explorer, Voyageur 1 & 2) for a fraction of the price.
I am not arguing that builders need to make a profit in order for the project to make sense. I understand your argument. But in this specific case, Monarch got too greedy with their pricing.
Two years ago, the market was hot, Monarch wanted to capitalize on that and realized prices in the Breeze were too low. So, they cancel the project and give people their deposits back. Six months later, Nautilus is launched and prices are ridiculous. Honestly, who lined up to by a unit in Nautilus? A bunch of real estate agents? Why hasn't Nautilus sold out yet?
Beyond the Sea, which isn't even on the waterfront, sold out in what, a week? Who would pass up an opportunity to live on the water?
For Monarch's sake, I hope the buildings get built and the people are happy.
BMyers
Active Member
Profit
CondoCritic.
I am wondering what an acceptable profit margin for a developer would be in your mind?
10%, 15% ?
And what would be considered a "Greedy" level of profit?
I do not know if Monarch is doing a good job at their projects in terms of finish, customer service, etc. or if they are cutting corners, but is it not the goal of any company to maximize profit?
Nautilus was launched in Sept 07 at about $410 psf, and Beyond the Sea - Star Tower was launched in Oct 07 at about $460 psf, so Monarch is actually less than the competition in a better location!
CondoCritic.
I am wondering what an acceptable profit margin for a developer would be in your mind?
10%, 15% ?
And what would be considered a "Greedy" level of profit?
I do not know if Monarch is doing a good job at their projects in terms of finish, customer service, etc. or if they are cutting corners, but is it not the goal of any company to maximize profit?
Nautilus was launched in Sept 07 at about $410 psf, and Beyond the Sea - Star Tower was launched in Oct 07 at about $460 psf, so Monarch is actually less than the competition in a better location!
Mike in TO
Senior Member
Did you even read my post?
Breeze was canned because it only sold a quarter of the units after 16 months on the market, it had nothing to do with a realization on the developers part that the market was "hot" (I don't think a developer that only sells a quarter of their product after 16 months would be particularly bullish on how hot the market was for that particular time & location). The entire project was redesigned and the price point reflected market realities as well as the budget to construct the project.
edit: In response to your comments on purchasing at earlier phases - it is a free market, anyone can choose to purchase wherever they want and the market dictates the pricing. Also earlier phases don't have the same standard features, project amenities, energy efficient appliances etc, furthermore development charges and other regulatory fees have increased since then, plus the Toronto Land Transfer Tax and changes to the Building Code have come into effect - it's pretty difficult to compare earlier phases of the same project as the actual towers and components and the cost of the components in the towers differ rather significantly
Given that your first post on the project in question was either ridiculous assumptions or outright lies I don't think you have too much credibility on any reasons why Monarch changed their business plan.
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condocritic
Guest
Okay, you don't have to get so defensive. Either you work for Monarch, or have purchased a unit in one of the new buildings.
As for profit margin? That is relative. Monarch purchased the waterfront property for dirt cheap. Some units in the Voyageur were selling for $120k, with a balcony & parking spot. That was late 2004. Sure, costs increase, but the market obviously drives the price.
I have lived in the area my entire life, and I've watched the waterfront develop from the Palace Pier on. Now, that is waterfront property. Grenadier Landing, the closest a building will ever get to the lake, Explorer, great value for the money. But how can anyone justify paying so much to live in Nautilus, which will become the furthest building from the lake, and have the fewest available views to downtown Toronto?
You say I did not read your post? Maybe you haven't read mine. All I am saying, is the NEW projects launched by Monarch are OVERPRICED. Eventually, when Nautilus is built, it will probably be 2013/14, and I truly don't think the units will be worth more than they are selling for today. Isn't the reason for buying property to invest in an appreciating asset?
BTW, it is taking forever to start construction on Nautilus. I'm surprised they even dug the hole.
So, have you invested in one of Monarch's projects?
As for profit margin? That is relative. Monarch purchased the waterfront property for dirt cheap. Some units in the Voyageur were selling for $120k, with a balcony & parking spot. That was late 2004. Sure, costs increase, but the market obviously drives the price.
I have lived in the area my entire life, and I've watched the waterfront develop from the Palace Pier on. Now, that is waterfront property. Grenadier Landing, the closest a building will ever get to the lake, Explorer, great value for the money. But how can anyone justify paying so much to live in Nautilus, which will become the furthest building from the lake, and have the fewest available views to downtown Toronto?
You say I did not read your post? Maybe you haven't read mine. All I am saying, is the NEW projects launched by Monarch are OVERPRICED. Eventually, when Nautilus is built, it will probably be 2013/14, and I truly don't think the units will be worth more than they are selling for today. Isn't the reason for buying property to invest in an appreciating asset?
BTW, it is taking forever to start construction on Nautilus. I'm surprised they even dug the hole.
So, have you invested in one of Monarch's projects?
Mike in TO
Senior Member
No... and perhaps they aren't well priced right now as they aren't selling, but then again not much is selling these days.
Condocritic: just so you know, Mike in TO is one of UrbanToronto's best informed and most respected members. His job gives him in-depth knowledge of the industry beyond what anyone else at this forum has. As a new member here, certainly you are allowed to disagree and debate with him, as you are with any member, but please understand that Mike is an expert in every sense of the word in this area.
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condocritic
Guest
I respect everyone's point of view.
Mike in TO, I apologize if I have offended you, or any other member of this forum.
Mike in TO, I apologize if I have offended you, or any other member of this forum.
CanadianDriver
Active Member
Solaris
Senior Member
thanks for the pics CD ... as much as I would like to see Monarch's 'Waterview' community completed as soon as possible ... I'm not liking this last phase Waterscapes, it simply doesn't seem to jive with abutting buildings' design (also built by Monarch) ... it would have made a lot of sense if they kept Waterscapes as a mid-rise building similar in form as Explorer to create a "beach front" like environment along Marine Parade Drive, rather than plunking a 32s tower right by the water
of course, just my 2 cents
of course, just my 2 cents
Mike in TO
Senior Member
The original plan was to have something similar to Explorer built on the site. It certainly would have created a more balanced community.
CanadianDriver
Active Member
It appears from this document that the city prefers the "new" design as against the original design (ala-Explorer)
p.11
http://www.toronto.ca/planning/pdf/design_review/drp_meeting_minutes_oct08.pdf
Solaris
Senior Member
Scaled Model
Southwest View
The Podium
The Village Court - (central courtyard between Waterscapes + Explorer)
Southwest View
The Podium
The Village Court - (central courtyard between Waterscapes + Explorer)
Solaris
Senior Member
Model Suite
pretty well designed / decorated suite ... worth checking out ~
Living Room
Kitchen
pretty well designed / decorated suite ... worth checking out ~
Living Room
Kitchen
Solaris
Senior Member
according to the sales person ... Waterscapes is about 25% sold at this time; based on that, my guess is it would be a while before construction starts
*****
on another note ... what's interesting about Waterscapes is the rooftop terrace and amenities on the 6th floor of the east wing, that should provide some nice views for all residents to enjoy (especially if you have a non-water view unit)
*****
on another note ... what's interesting about Waterscapes is the rooftop terrace and amenities on the 6th floor of the east wing, that should provide some nice views for all residents to enjoy (especially if you have a non-water view unit)