Toronto Velocity at the Square | 122.52m | 40s | HNR | P + S / IBI

Tewder, I will happily sing that tune with you in unison: with the caveat that I do not like G+C's specific plan here, it is more in line with what should rise at this corner. Some firm better with the wow-factor than G+C* should have their hands on the reins here, either that or drop some hallucinogens into Jack's morning coffee.

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*would someone please ring the Dutch? Or bring Alsop back into practice: can you imagine what something Alsop had planned would look like here? I can dream...

Arquitectonica?

But what about freaking HNR?!? You're speaking of the D+S design as if it's fronting on the square--it isn't. HNR is. And it's a building with more raw urban soul IMO than anything else on the square--even if it has less of that "crass and clashing visual clutter of commercialism" than anything else on the square.

Think of D+S as a backdrop to that, as opposed to the square proper.

I'd certainly agree with that. The biggest shame of Dundas Square is that stupid little driveway between HNR and the square itself. Wouldn't it have been lovely if whatever tenant was at the base of the building could just spill out onto the square?

Heh heh. You know, my favourite US moments are when Kuwabara and Diamond have their spats and our much-loved forumer falls eerily silent...


Anyway, I just don't really get the fuss over this building. Sure, it's not fantastic but neither is any of the architecture in the area (with the arguable exception of parts of the Eaton Centre). This is a bland but probably fairly competent new building that, considering D+S's involvement, will likely be better-executed than most new condos going up. It may or may not have ads up and down the side--regardless of present intentions, there's little doubt that in twenty years it will have them--but I'm quite indifferent either way. I'd much rather save the energy and vitriol for mediocrity or outright harm on truly important and prominent sites, like the water's edge or the heart of the Distillery.
 
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"adapts to the character of 19 and 21 Dundas Square which it has more in common with"

??????? huh???

Its funny but I do not see any ad-ready blank walls on 19 and 21 Dundas Square. In fact, the character of 19 and 21, are detailed decorative facades full of windows and animation aimed directly at the square.
 
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NB: I'm still responding to this particular Toronto-Harbour-Commission-building tangent in this thread, with the anticipation/hope/whatever that it'll be taken into its own thread (somehow).

That you would advocate tearing down THC or Hermant Annex, all the while claiming sensitivity to preservation issues is puzzling beyond belief, and only underscores the dangerous consequences of fusty thinking, whether the issue is preservation options or political/funding neglect.

Speaking of "puzzling beyond belief", I think you misread my quote.
The most practical thing, never mind the "historical correctness" issue, would be to keep the thing in situ. (Or else to demolish it; which in its way, might be the more "historically correct" solution, if one wants to approximate a 1910s/20s judgment call.)
I wasn't personally advocating its demolition; rather, I was stating that if 2009 were like 1919, a building like this probably could be demolished with little fuss. The broadly-sweeping preservation movement as we know it isn't even half a century old, born out of and snowballing from the losses of Penn Station, et al, and the near-losses of Old City Hall, et al.

And to be honest, if I were to look at things even from a present-day abstract POV of the development or commercial real estate industry, I can see how a building like the THC can be viewed as a pain in the neck to deal with. It's overbuilt and impractical, an awkward Beaux-Arts mini-palace for an institution with a chequered history. Because of its prima donna architecture, it's virtually impossible to add onto with any practical-minded grace; and because of its positioning on the site, it's virtually impossible to build around it without it looking like a ridiculous toy. So, then, what can you do with an albatross like this without the city heritage Nazis breathing down your neck? Given that, I can understand the wishful-think involved re moving it out of the freaking way to a so-called "more appropriate" waterfront location where it can be "better appreciated".

But please, don't read that as personal advocacy. Just read that as a macro-assessment of the hypothetical outermost parameters of the situation at hand, i.e. I'm playing devil's advocate, I'm taking a position not my own. OTOH the advocate in me would tell that abstract POV: drop dead, it's your problem. And re the so-called heritage albatross: God bless this mess.

Sometimes it takes a little strategic insensitivity, or counter-sensitivity, or recognition thereof, in order to attain the highest form of "sensitivity to preservation issues".

This building's very unique original context is lost here, and that it was indeed designed for a waterfront location is abundantly clear from pictures posted.

But as I stated, the "very unique original context" was a temporary condition--and the "landlocking" through landfill was already anticipated by the the time THC was built. And if any institution was well aware of that fact, it was the Toronto Harbour Commission. It was designed to be seen--not to be specifically seen from the water; indeed, its positioning may have been more of a cue for than a denial of the landfill that was to come.

You see, you still don't "get it". And you remain guilty, in your erstwhile claim that even the most vociferous preservationist would have no problems w/the THC being moved, of a gross misreading of where the preservationist realm is at today. But now that you're reminded of it, you're trying to spin some ideal of "reasonability" against what I'm presenting to you (which reminds me of men's-rights groups saying "if feminists were reasonable" bla bla bla); or else projecting more anal-retentiveness upon myself than there is. Look: it should be clear in the rawest terms that the Hermant Annex is "lesser stuff" than THC; so it isn't like there's an inconsistency between my going to bat more for one than the other--unless you actively want the hysterical-preservationist strawman to be absolutely paranoid about anything, anything at all being destroyed, especially if it's on a heritage inventory bla bla bla.

And if you find any of that "puzzling beyond belief", hey, remember: I'm the sort who can claim "sensitivity to preservation issues" while recognizing that an act of architectural (and indeed, human) destruction might well be the most important aesthetic event of our lives.
wtc_9-11.jpg

Doesn't mean I'd advocate more like it. Just that it's one heck of a fait accompli.

(And incidentally, I'm not claiming that as a common heritage POV, either. But sometimes it takes a marginal stance to attain a clear view of the mainstream.)
 
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(And incidentally, I'm not claiming that as a common heritage POV, either. But sometimes it takes a marginal stance to attain a clear view of the mainstream.)

... but that's sort of what I was doing too, no? I've tried to be clear that I'm not demanding it must be moved, only that heritage success stories come in different forms. To demolish rather than allow a building's history to evolve seems a little like cutting the nose off to spite the face. Activists are okay with this but true conservationists wouldn't be.

And to be honest, if I were to look at things even from a present-day abstract POV of the development or commercial real estate industry, I can see how a building like the THC can be viewed as a pain in the neck to deal with. It's overbuilt and impractical, an awkward Beaux-Arts mini-palace for an institution with a chequered history. Because of its prima donna architecture, it's virtually impossible to add onto with any practical-minded grace; and because of its positioning on the site, it's virtually impossible to build around it without it looking like a ridiculous toy. So, then, what can you do with an albatross like this without the city heritage Nazis breathing down your neck? Given that, I can understand the wishful-think involved re moving it out of the freaking way to a so-called "more appropriate" waterfront location where it can be "better appreciated".

Heritage Nazis are sort of the problem though Adma, even if they are invaluable at the same time. The problem arises from viewing heritage as frozen in time rather than living, and in applying strict preservation dogma to any situation regardless of circumstances such that when dogma fails us we have no option but to demolish. This is simply wrong and a sign that the objectives have been lost... and is sort of like putting orphaned children in front of the firing squad because the only perceived ideal way to raise children is with loving, biological parents. Each building, each site, each objet is individual and requires an individual set of criteria and an individual plan, and sustainability is a big part of conservation for those who practise it.


You see, you still don't "get it". And you remain guilty, in your erstwhile claim that even the most vociferous preservationist would have no problems w/the THC being moved, of a gross misreading of where the preservationist realm is at today. But now that you're reminded of it, you're trying to spin some ideal of "reasonability" against what I'm presenting to you (which reminds me of men's-rights groups saying "if feminists were reasonable" bla bla bla); or else projecting more anal-retentiveness upon myself than there is.

Ok, i'll admit my original comment was simplistic but my spin is not disingenuous. It is never a waste of time to open dialogue on heritage issues or new ideas. As you say the way we view preservation today is far different than a hundred years ago. It will continue to evolve and that's a good thing.
 
Well, I wish I could post an update on the fate of the proposal. I was at the Community Council meeting all morning, but had to split at 1pm or so to get back to work and they were still discussing items three and four: Final Report - Ossington Avenue - Restaurant Study and Bloor Corridor Visioning Study - Draft Official Plan Amendment and Urban Design Guidelines respectively.

I can say that, based on watching the Meeting Monitor from work, the discussion on item 7, Final Report - 252-258 Victoria Street and 19-21 Dundas Square - Rezoning Application, took about ten seconds. I imagine that means it's a go, though it's now listed as "amended" so who knows what was changed. Was anyone else at the meeting today?
 
The Square is a viewing platform for the wall of advertising that surrounds it. It has no semblance to a quiet design-opposite. It is a public space - covered with throngs of vendors selling stuff from carts at weekends, home to corporate events and product launches held in big tents at other times, used by buskers, used for concerts, used for parties, used for political rallies, with a large booth selling tickets to concerts at one side, you name it. It is entirely given over to commercial interests for much of the time. Functionally, a residential building with office space is quite different - which is why the tower adapts to the character of 19 and 21 Dundas Square which it has more in common with.

It doesn't adapt to their character at all. On the one hand you argue it will serve as a good counterpoint to these buildings. Then on the other hand you argue it will adapt to their character. A building can certainly accomplish more than one thing (or 'chew gum and walk at the same time' as you put it) but this design definitely doesn't accomplish that goal.

The Square was originally designed to be the "eye in the storm" and it still serves that function for the most part, even though it often hosts special events. If anything, I'd say it's the Square that can adapt to its surroundings and also contrast with them. I see no reason why a break in the visual activity (especially one that large) is necessary at that location, especially given the breaks in other areas, such as the intersections.
 
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Yes, and this calming feature is never more apparant, indeed perhaps too much so, than in winter.
 
I may live there one day, if I tire of the Winter Palace. It's an almost perfect central location for someone who wants to live in the heart of the city - an easy walk in all directions to the opera and ballet, Roy Thomson Hall, the AGO, the harbour, Old Town, the ROM and shopping, you name it - and such a handsome building too.

Its funny but I do not see any ad-ready blank walls on 19 and 21 Dundas Square.

There's one on the west side of the heritage building, visible from the Square. I'm surprised you haven't indulged your horror vacui and advocated for it to be plastered with ads. From that angle you'll also be able to see how the varied roof line of the condo echoes the "big brother/small brother" relationship between 19 and 21 Dundas Square - it's all nicely thought out, not just the way in which the strong verticals of those two heritage buildings are echoed in the new building. Everything connects.
 
Though I am not going to comment that I think this is a flawless design, I don't see how it is in any way offensive. Not to mention that this paranoia about the "empty spaces" (as if they are somehow expansive) is ridiculous.

It's a sophisticated design-- and in no way does the architect claim to have matched the decorative facades of the two smaller buildings beneath/in front of it, as someone appears to have interpreted it-- it simply is slotted in and makes its own statement while still mimicking their heights/differences in massing.

I really can't decide what I want to see on Dundas Square in the future-- all I know is that I don't want it to be just another glass tower, and this proposal was more than just a glass tower. Something a bit more iconic here would be nice, but I don't see why this design is considered so offensive.
 
Fear of unadorned space, fear of Jack Diamond etc. - all the usual dreary phobias.

The lack of decorative elements on the tower isn't surprising, but that only adds to the subtlety of the relationship between it and the two heritage buildings. It's rather like what KPMB did with their King James Place vis-a-vis the much earlier buildings near it; echoing them yet resolutely contemporary.
 
Fear of boredom is the drive to create beauty. Acceptance of boredom leads one to accept designs like this.
 
Why is a wall of windows and balconies any less boring than a wall of windows and balconies and, well, walls? At least the blank walls can be covered in ads, with the narrows strips of windows in between the blank walls acting - at night, at least - as racing stripe lighting features.
 

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