Toronto Urban Sprawl Compared to Other Cities

[ShonTron]

I would say that the older American suburbs are far superior to their Toronto counterparts at least in terms of architecture. There is no outlying area of the GTA that has Oak Park's Frank Lloyd Wright heritage or the shingle style houses of suburban Boston. Even New York's Bronxville and Bedford Hills make Oakville look dumpy, trashy and off-the-shelf.

Now the people living in those communities are a different story...

Chicago's and New York's railway suburbs are much older than most of Toronto's as they were 1,000,000+ cities in 1900 while Toronto was only at most 350,000 at the same time. Chicago has some great central railway suburbs, but Toronto does have Port Credit and Oakville - which are still nice, urban railway suburbs surrounded by similar suburbia that you get in outer Cook County.

 

[ShonTron]

I'm no fan of the Toronto suburbs but the sprawl in US cities approach the physical limits of ugliness.

Why are you showing us a photo of Highland Park? That ain't suburbia. That's a bankrupt hellscape city surrounded by another bankrupt hellscape city. There used to be an beautiful art deco three storey Sears store to the immediate right of that photo.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Chicago's and New York's railway suburbs are much older than most of Toronto's as they were 1,000,000+ cities in 1900 while Toronto was only at most 350,000 at the same time. Chicago has some great central railway suburbs, but Toronto does have Port Credit and Oakville - which are still nice, urban railway suburbs surrounded by similar suburbia that you get in outer Cook County.

Still, it's funny that Toronto was never surrounded by mid-sized, proper cities early on in its history. With the exception of Brampton and, if you are going out that far, Oshawa and Oakville (Hamilton was out of Toronto's orbit back then), the 905 suburbs, and even the outer 416 suburbs were tiny hamlets, villages and townships until the postwar boom. The density of Scarborough township was probably not much different from the density of, say, Perth county in 1910. This isn't even the case in newer, west coast cities like Vancouver, Seattle or Los Angeles, which all had decent sized towns and cities within an easy interurban ride.

 

[junctionist]

Why are you showing us a photo of Highland Park? That ain't suburbia. That's a bankrupt hellscape city surrounded by another bankrupt hellscape city. There used to be an beautiful art deco three storey Sears store to the immediate right of that photo.

What you see in that photo is what a lot of American suburban arterials look like, except for the generous sidewalks. It's not suburbia, but the image is an accurate representation. The more affluent suburbs might have some niceties like landscaped medians, but that's what they look like.

What's remarkable, though, is that Detroit's inner city has quite wide streets like Gratiot Avenue that are lined with walkable blocks with a built form like Bloor Street (west of Spadina) but with 8 lanes of traffic. Michigan Avenue even has 8 lanes of brick pavement in one neighbourhood. The standard Toronto main street is only 4 lanes wide, and that street width is almost universal to the point of banality in this city. Detroit would have an easy time building transit ROWs and bike lanes if it were prosperous like Toronto. The city could probably have the streetcar network of Toronto, but with every route in its own ROW and still have the same private vehicle capacity.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It could go from this:

To this:

 

[Forgotten]

What's remarkable, though, is that Detroit's inner city has quite wide streets like Gratiot Avenue that are lined with walkable blocks with a built form like Bloor Street (west of Spadina) but with 8 lanes of traffic. Michigan Avenue even has 8 lanes of brick pavement in one neighbourhood. The standard Toronto main street is only 4 lanes wide, and that street width is almost universal to the point of banality in this city. Detroit would have an easy time building transit ROWs and bike lanes if it were prosperous like Toronto. The city could probably have the streetcar network of Toronto, but with every route in its own ROW and still have the same private vehicle capacity.

That part of Michigan Avenue looks ugly as hell.

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

What you see in that photo is what a lot of American suburban arterials look like, except for the generous sidewalks. It's not suburbia, but the image is an accurate representation. The more affluent suburbs might have some niceties like landscaped medians, but that's what they look like.


Detroit would have an easy time building transit ROWs and bike lanes if it were prosperous like Toronto. The city could probably have the streetcar network of Toronto, but with every route in its own ROW and still have the same private vehicle capacity.

Some past views of Detroit's streetcars. Even with the streetcar tracks there is ample road space. There were even sections or Private ROW.

http://www.detroittransithistory.info/PhotoGalley/Photos1940sD.html

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Toronto has a lot of blockburbia too.

What I mean by that is that our suburbs are denser but have more people in them. Mississauga, Brampton, etc are huge. Even Burlington and Oshawa are big.

Only places I see this is in Los Angeles (Long Beach, Riverside, Fontana) and Phoenix (Mesa, Scottsdale, Glendale)

 

[spider]

It could go from this:

To this:

Trees planted in a 2 foot (less curbs) boulevard would be unlikely to survive let alone withstand the perils of a snow plow from both sides.

Running streetcars adjacent to the sidewalk would turn it into a block long subway platform, not a great idea.

Nice illustration though.

 

[Transportfan]

- No white flight like in US

Actually, Toronto seems to be experiencing a sort of "reverse white flight" (though I don't think it's due to racism) from the suburbs to the inner-city. Old Toronto is actually becoming whiter than suburbia due to gentrification.

 

[Johnny Au]

Actually, Toronto seems to be experiencing a sort of "reverse white flight" (though I don't think it's due to racism) from the suburbs to the inner-city. Old Toronto is actually becoming whiter than suburbia due to gentrification.

Toronto also has much more ethnoburbs than most cities in the United States. Ethnoburbs may initiate white flight towards the inner city.

 

[ehlow]

Toronto also has much more ethnoburbs than most cities in the United States. Ethnoburbs may initiate white flight towards the inner city.

Here is Toronto's ethnic map:
http://neoformix.com/Projects/DotMaps/TorontoVisMin.html
No surprises there. Places like High Park, the Beach, the Yonge corridor between Lawrence to St Clair are predominantly white. These also generally correspond to the higher income areas shown in the three cities study.
The downtown core (south of Bloor, between Bathurst & the Don valley) is actually more ethnically diverse than the immediately surrounding areas.
Concentrations of Asian people in north Scarborough, Markham, Richmond Hill.

The separation in some US cities is much more clear (8 Mile rd in Detroit, Eminem's old hood, also Chicago)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/sets/72157626354149574/detail/

I'm definitely one of the only people on my street who isn't white, near Yonge & Eg.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Detriots new streetcar is going curbside so thats why I stuck the streetcars there. This could work just as well:

 

[howl]

Detriots new streetcar is going curbside so thats why I stuck the streetcars there. This could work just as well:

I'd eliminate the on-street parking, since there is none now, which would improve the safety of the bike lanes. I'd make the automobile lanes a more standard 3.4m wide and then add any extra space to the sidewalks.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I'd eliminate the on-street parking, since there is none now, which would improve the safety of the bike lanes. I'd make the automobile lanes a more standard 3.4m wide and then add any extra space to the sidewalks.

In Detroit, there is no need to park on the streets because of all the off-street parking caused by tearing down the otherwise unused and empty buildings.