Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[crs1026]

Actually it does, and substantially, depending on how the particular form of PTC is manifest.
Lots of papers on-line, AAR hosts a number, but this one puts the use of PTC in a larger context, and this is how many advanced nations are now using it:

Lots of good info, but a bit off point. What we have on the Weston line will be good enough for a couple decades more, and it can accept a low-functionality PTC that merely enforces fixed block train spacing. No need to tear apart what was just built. Good is good enough for now. Lusting after fancier technology just to say we have it doesn't help anything, when its capabilities won't be needed.

The optimal use of the track would be to have UPE comingle with RER, using only two tracks. That leaves the other two free for HSR and express GO trains. Personally, I would like to see UPE continue to morph into plain RER as a branching route. The only issue would be how many stops UPE can skip before it catches up with the previous stopping train, or alternatively how many stops UPE can make before it loses its marketability as a fast downtown-Pearson express service. (I'm assuming a more compatible performance spec or a single type of equipment.)

That might explain how Bloor ended up with one very wide platform and one very narrow platform.... the intent being that the narrow platform is the express route and would see much more limited use. However, the alignment of the Liberty station is now at odds with that. No amount of high end PTC will compensate for trains needing to change tracks.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

What we have on the Weston line will be good enough for a couple decades more, and it can accept a low-functionality PTC that merely enforces fixed block train spacing. No need to tear apart what was just built. Good is good enough for now. Lusting after fancier technology just to say we have it doesn't help anything, when its capabilities won't be needed.

The optimal use of the track would be to have UPE comingle with RER, using only two tracks.

We're actually agreeing on how to maximize four tracks. I fully agree, a *lot* can be done with four tracks, as is done in many other locales in the world with a lot heavier load than that corridor.

I can't fathom adding tracks beside pinch points when the cost of doing so, with attendant station and bridge infrastructure cost must be more than adopting a CBTC system that not only allows four track running, but allows it with closer headways and punctuality. Add a few flyovers to get UP better aligned, and things will be even easier. Once CBTC is instituted, flat junctions will be the real limitation to clear running.

Some of the busiest trunks in the world are even less than four tracks! (Crossrail and Thameslink in the UK just dual tracks in their core sections).

Edit to Add: Just reading up to make sure my claim above of two and four tracks is substantiated (it is) and tripped across this: (ATP is a rough analogy to PTC, ATO is competing but potentially complementary)

Main Line ATO evaluated

• 13th April 2017
• • Rail News
  • Signalling and Telecoms

[...]
International considerations

Several speakers informed delegates on what is happening internationally. David Dimmer from Thales in Canada told of the work to develop an ATO package for urban and main line use within the NGTC (Next Generation Train Control) project under the EU 7th Framework Programme. The analysis has compared CBTC and ETCS, where 49 per cent of functionality is similar but only one per cent at system level.

Eight work packages including moving block, IP-based radio, satellite positioning and message structure are underway. Train and platform door operation and train positioning will be quite different for main line ATO as compared to metro due to dis-similar operating conditions – metro trains typically stop every two minutes whereas main line stops are much more spread out. The coupling and uncoupling of trains also has to be considered.

Benoît Bienfait, the Intercity/ATO manager at Alstom, described the work to categorise the benefits of ATO. Current timetables allow for 90 per cent of trains to arrive early at stations. With ATO, the integration of infrastructure and timetable data will allow an optimum speed profile with guaranteed arrival and departure times. Energy savings of up to 12 per cent can be achieved compared to manual driving. Studies on different driver behaviour show a 15 per cent variance in energy consumption for inter-city trains and 40 per cent for local trains.
[...]

https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/04/13/main-line-ato-evaluated/

And Metrolinx wants to look at Hydrail for solutions? My God, the answers already exist with catenary, but with state-of-the-art signal and control systems, soon to be available, if not already so, off the shelf. And others have funded the research already.

 

[smallspy]

Actually it does, and substantially, depending on how the particular form of PTC is manifest.

From a regulatory standpoint, and considering what is being installed and used in the US (and quite likely Canada), it doesn't. It's simply an overlay on the existing signalling systems.

ERTMS and the other advanced signalling systems being installed and in use elsewhere in the world also have a PTC-like functionality built into their core, but to call them solely "PTC" is unfair. They do so much more.

Lots of good info, but a bit off point. What we have on the Weston line will be good enough for a couple decades more, and it can accept a low-functionality PTC that merely enforces fixed block train spacing. No need to tear apart what was just built. Good is good enough for now. Lusting after fancier technology just to say we have it doesn't help anything, when its capabilities won't be needed.

- Paul

To that end....

I was talking to a friend of mine who is intimately familiar with the corridor and signal design there, having been involved in the project. With the way that the signalling is set up there - the short blocks, the new signals and progressions - is designed to allow for 100mph+ passenger trains (or 65mph freights) on a 3 mile spacing.

We wracked our brains for about 20 minutes, and came to the conclusion that the only other possible place where this could be allowed is on the North East Corridor - and that's a maybe.

That's an absolutely enormous amount of capacity if used to its fullest extent, way more than is currently being run or even imagined on the corridor.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[steveintoronto]

^ Then the point is made that more than four tracks aren't needed.

...designed to allow for 100mph+ passenger trains (or 65mph freights) on a 3 mile spacing.

Are you sure on that math?

World Class performance achievable is for a 2 minute headway (or better). At 3 miles apart, and stations every half mile, calculate the speed needed to attain that.

 

[smallspy]

Are you sure on that math?

World Class performance achievable is for a 2 minute headway (or better). At 3 miles apart, and stations every half mile, calculate the speed needed to attain that.

Completely sure.

With the new progressions, it will take 6 signals to go from a high green to a red. Then multiply by the 3/4 mile signal spacing.

Keep in mind, the only way that you could "reliably" run such a service is to use short equipment of equivalent and high performance. And I use air quotes around reliably, because that kind of thing doesn't take into account the need to use any crossovers - the first crossover will blow up that formula.

But what it does give you is a signal system that is capable of very high performance within the North American regulatory sphere, and the allowance for the existing services using the corridor to grow their service without further infrastructure cost.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Ontario Adding More Service on GO Transit and UP Express

From link.

The UP Express will also add two new early-morning trips between Union Station and Pearson International Airport starting April 7, 2018, for a total of 14 new trips per week. The two new trips--departing Union Station at 4:55 a.m. and 5:10 a.m.--make the UP Express an even more convenient choice for travellers catching an early flight and will offer airport employees more flexibility in their morning commutes.

I'm guessing they didn't want an April 1st start, because of the possible jokes.

 

[robmausser]

Ontario Adding More Service on GO Transit and UP Express

From link.



I'm guessing they didn't want an April 1st start, because of the possible jokes.

No increased/weekend service on Kitchener, Stouffville, Barrie?

What a joke Metrolinx is.

They should call Metrolinx the Lakeshore Gravy Train, because its the only GO line they seem to care about.

 

[dowlingm]

No increased/weekend service on Kitchener, Stouffville, Barrie?

What a joke Metrolinx is.

They should call Metrolinx the Lakeshore Gravy Train, because its the only GO line they seem to care about.

 

[mdrejhon]

Even with partial electrification, say even from Bramalea to Union, wouldn't it still make sense to run dual-mode locomotives on the KW/Brampton trains? I don't think Metrolinx has thought real service patterns through at all.

They do need to keep experimenting (in office simulations) more, but they seem to already be working on that.

I think they have -- I saw a lot of interesting information in the GO RER Initial Business Case and the GO RER + SmartTrack Integration. I read through dozens of obscure Metrolinx PDF files... There are occasionally times where the left hand is still learning to communicate to the right hand, but these diagrams are interesting:

There are many more diagrams elsewhere, and internal experiments only, and they've made a few mistakes (e.g. missed opportunities in Georgetown Corridor optimizations), but they are learning and discovering how to operate under fuller ownership.
-- >80% of GO network was only recently purchased
-- New train control centre office at Oakville (under construction)
-- CN handover to Metrolinx has not yet fully happened
-- Georgetown Corridor is one of the first RER-compatible corridors completed, only 3 years ago

Credit where credit due, Metrolinx is the best thing that has ever happened to the GO system, inefficiencies nonwithstanding. (Even as my taxpayer wallet somewhat grumbles -- let's look at history).

Shout and hype on the surface aside, they're not going to use hydrail, as the system is clearly structured to go electrified catenary, but hydrail might happen to feeder lines (like, you know, Niagara-Hamilton or Bolton, or whatever) -- I don't anticipate a full-Hydrailification instead of electrification.

The Dark Ages of the GO cancellations of the 1990s are long behind us, and not even Doug Ford (not my desired premier, but at least it doesn't look like a Transit City or Eglinton Subway disaster this time around) apparently wants to tamper too excessively with the GO plans. Not nearly as much as Rob Ford tampered with Transit City, anyway.

GO is hugely rebrandable (SmartTrack is just GO RER) -- as a suburb-friendly surface subway, or liberal-friendly metro Toronto rapid transit upgrade, with simple rearrangement of deck chairs (e.g. postponing/accelerating infill stations and service-plan / frequency juggling) -- but the plan of underlying frequency and electric upgrades is still marching forward continuously regardless of party color. Nobody appears to be remotely planning to dig up railroad tracks like filling in Eglinton Subway tunnels or removing massive number of trains from service. New future crazy ideas will randomly pop up, similar to the vein of putting heavy rail on Eglinton (now sensibly replaced by the Eglinton West LRT plan) but that's not nearly as SMH as many parts of the last 25 years.

 

[crs1026]

The Dark Ages of the GO cancellations of the 1990s are long behind us, and not even Doug Ford (not my desired premier, but at least it doesn't look like a Transit City or Eglinton Subway disaster this time around) apparently wants to tamper too excessively with the GO plans. Not nearly as much as Rob Ford tampered with Transit City, anyway.

Have we actually seen him say anything like this in a quotable setting?

- Paul

 

[hw621]

It's funny how we discuss this in the UPX thread. Should we shout out to the parties now, like, starting a hashtag #keeptheGORER on Twitter, and let them know where the votes will go to?

 

[steveintoronto]

Have we actually seen him say anything like this in a quotable setting?

- Paul

I have a very uneasy feeling about this...No, there is nothing in writing, I've looked, but with Ford, writing or not, it doesn't matter. He just 'doesn't get it'.

It's bad enough that the Libs have badly mismanaged this, I can only see it getting worse under Ford. I wish I had the optimism of others, being able to think: "Well it's so logical and needed, it will get done". Logic doesn't count to reactionaries...

Dougie will spend alright, but only to supply his habit:

"There's a hole in daddy's arm where all the money goes"
Sam Stone
John Prine

There's a hole in Dougie's arm, and it's in the ground. Subways! Subways! Subways!

UPX is for elitists, did'n ya know?

 

[steveintoronto]

Yep posted it a while back.

Then please find and link, because here's all I can find:

Doug Ford comments on Metrolinx proposed taxes | Watch News ...
▶ 3:01
https://globalnews.ca/.../doug-ford-comments-on-metrolinx-proposed...
May 28, 2013
Watch Doug Ford comments on Metrolinx proposed taxes Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca.

Doug Ford: Light rail plans example of 'war on the car' - Toronto - CBC ...
www.cbc.ca/news/.../doug-ford-light-rail-plans-example-of-war-on-the-car-1.1241683
Apr 25, 2012 - A vote by provincial transit agency Metrolinx in favour of the construction of four light rail lines across Toronto by 2020 is the latest instance of a "war on the car" in the city, says Coun. Doug Ford.

Doug Ford says Metrolinx LRT plan 'a clear war on the cars,' not a fan ...
nationalpost.com/.../quote-of-the-day-doug-ford-rails-against-the-three-pronged-war-on...
Apr 25, 2012 - Maybe the Medical Officer of Health should stick with the medical profession and not the transportation profession. So, we have three attacks on the cars and the taxpayers of the city.” Councillor Doug Ford reacting to Metrolinx's approval of a light-rail transit plan for Toronto, centrist councillors musing about ...

Other search results predate these, I leave it at that. I'd be happy to consider anything positive Dougie has to say on the matter...

 

[crs1026]

I guess we are drifting into the wrong thread. See you on the other side if there is more to say.

- Pau

 

[steveintoronto]

They do need to keep experimenting (in office simulations) more, but they seem to already be working on that.

I think they have -- I saw a lot of interesting information in the GO RER Initial Business Case and the GO RER + SmartTrack Integration. I read through dozens of obscure Metrolinx PDF files... There are occasionally times where the left hand is still learning to communicate to the right hand, but these diagrams are interesting:

There are many more diagrams elsewhere, and internal experiments only, and they've made a few mistakes (e.g. missed opportunities in Georgetown Corridor optimizations), but they are learning and discovering how to operate under fuller ownership.
[...]

That diagram is intriguing, took some time to find it, but discussion ensues here: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...0160628_BoardMtg_Appendix_3_SmartTrack_EN.pdf

[...]
10.0 APPENDIX Appendix A: Technical Methodology supporting the Deliverability Screening
[...]
Track Requirements To determine track requirements for each option, a preliminary timetable is developed using a list of assumptions that are shared among all options, such as train speed for electrified service and station dwell times. The timetable is then converted to a time-distance plot, which displays each and every train as a line on the plot based on its schedule and routing. See below for a sample time-distance plot.

[...chart MDrejohn posted is presented here...]

A time-distance plot creates a visual assessment of potential conflicts. For example, when two lines intersect, it represents two trains are “meeting” at that specific location; see Zoom-in #1. Trains can “meet” regardless of the direction in which they are travelling. Trains travelling in the same direction may intersect when a faster train overtakes a slower train; see Zoom-in #2. Where trainmeet occurs, a minimum of two tracks are required to avoid conflicts. And the more trains meet at a location, the more tracks are required. When there is insufficient track infrastructure to accommodate all the movements, the schedule of one or more trains can be advanced or postponed to shift the train meet location to where there are sufficient tracks. In some cases, converting trains between an express service and local all-stop service provides more flexibility in altering the train-meet locations. As a last resort, a new siding or an additional mainline track will need to be constructed to accommodate all the movements. The choice between constructing a siding or mainline track is dependent on the frequency and proximity of the train meet locations. In cases where multiple train-meet locations are in relatively close proximity, it may be more efficient to build an additional mainline track than multiple sidings. During the assessment, it was determined that some options achieved the goal of increased travel options for Toronto residents, but that increase came at the expense of triggering new infrastructure at one or more locations that are beyond the scope of GO RER.
[...]

Pg 45-46, APPENDIX 3 INTEGRATED GO RERSMARTTRACK OPTIONS INITIAL BUSINESS CASE JUNE 2016
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...0160628_BoardMtg_Appendix_3_SmartTrack_EN.pdf

Anything further you can link or discuss most appreciated. Also any discussion on the signalling and control systems necessary to accommodate the time charts and diagrams valuable. I've scanned a number of Metrolinx docs, but technical discussion of same is scant.

I continue to read on other systems that do far more with far less in terms of trackage. The 'missing factor' for Metrolinx continues to appear to be signalling and control, which would bring us back to the
New GO Train Control+Signalling (PTC, CBTC, ETC) -- Safety & Subway-Like Frequency string:
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...way-like-frequency.21483/page-10#post-1306649

This is already being done in other nations on two tracks, with express run-throughs being done on another two in many but not all cases. Japan is doing express run-throughs on two track shared with locals stopped at stations.

Addendum: Short on time, but to reference my point on Japan:

Kyoto Can Teach the D.C. Metro a Lesson About Express Tracks ...
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2014/11/kyoto...express-tracks/382286/
Nov 4, 2014 - Some of Japan's best rail is fast, flexible—and doesn't use express tracks. D.C.'s Silver Line doesn't need ... But as American heavy-rail systems reach further into Sprawlvilles, the choice is not necessarily between running all-local service on two tracks or local and express on four. There are other options.
Paris vs Tokyo: the two different models for express commuter rail ...
https://www.citymetric.com/.../paris-vs-tokyo-two-different-models-express-commuter...
Feb 28, 2017 - In Tokyo, of course, the commuter rail frequency in the core is even higher, since the inner lines are all at least four-tracked. But farther out, there are express and local trains mixed on two tracks, with timed overtakes, using the legendary punctuality of Japanese railways to schedule trains to avoid conflicts.

From the latter above:

[...]
First, some regional rail systems run express trains, whereas others are all local. The Munich and Berlin S-Bahns only have local trains. In contrast, the Paris RER and the Tokyo commuter rail network combine local and express trains – sometimes on four tracks, and sometimes on two, using the schedule to avoid conflicts.

Usually, systems that run express trains are bigger than systems that do not, but there are exceptions: Copenhagen's S-Train has express trains on most branches, and the Zurich S-Bahn has express trains on some lines as well.
[...]

Copenhagen use the newest Siemens system discussed in some of the prior articles I linked a day back.

[...]
Siemens is delivering a communications-based train control (CBTC) system on the 170km dual-track commuter rail network of the Copenhagen S-Bane in Denmark.

The first phase of the six phase rail project features a 25km line stretching from the suburb of Hillerod in the north to Jaegersborg in the east of Copenhagen.

The line, which has recently opened, will be able to serve more than 70,000 passengers every day. After the complete network is operational, it will be capable of handling up to 84 trains travelling on the core network each hour.

The complete network will be able to serve over 100 million passengers every year. The other five phases will support passenger service over the next few years.
[...]

Siemens to equip Copenhagen S-Bane with new CBTC system

I'll continue further detailed discussion of this in the PTC, CBTC, ETC string.

Put the term "Hydrail" in there, and QP would be all over it.