Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[torontocolin]

Once RER puts good frequent GO service on the Kitchener line, one would expect that UP would focus on true airport business, and that might include a fare differential.

I guess it depends on how much the difference in service affects ridership. If 15 minute service on the Kitchener line is sufficient to maximize ridership then fine, make the UPX special. But if the additional trains and/or the fact that they stop at fewer stops would attract more new riders to the network then do what it takes to get them on those trains, rather than having a boutique service bleeding money for a small group of riders.

 

[ssiguy2]

One thing that would really help ridership is to offer all employees who work at Pearson to ride the train with their standard TTC fare plus a nominal $1 surcharge or about $25/month. I know they currently have a discount but many workers at the airport don't make a whole lot such as security and retail so even with the current discounted fare, it's still too pricey for them.

As far as double-decker I was more referring to EMUs which would also get rid of the capacity problems by effectively having the same capacity as a 6 car train.

 

[mdrejhon]

Keep in mind many conceptual RER graphics uses variations of the Stadler KISS pictogram which is a bilevel EMU.

It is one of the candidate trains proposed for RER, amongst many,

It even has a dual-height door option, which CalTrain ordered. It is a wide doubledoor for all four sets per coach, wider than Montreal AMT's Bombarder MultiLevel.

- Order mainly low door option for core electrified GO routes (serves GO platforms)
- Order at least 30-40 coaches with dual level doors (serves GO & UPX platforms) with baggage racks.

Then plenty of UPX spares, which can also run on the rest of the RER network when not used for UPX.

Fleet commonalty opportunity?

This proposed GO EMU has a dual height door option too, that can serve UPX platforms.

Basically, the Stadler KISS train, with the optional high door option. Get some with, get some withut, and gain fleet commonalty.

Slightly longer boarding is mostly nonissue due to long dwelling at Pearson and Union (the high traffic stations) unlike middle sections of double decker routes (e.g. Sydney, France). The UPX boarding and disembarkation pattern will adapt well to these bilevels.

Opportunities could include making one coach for strictly airport passengers only at Union, or encouraging one deck to be airport travellers and the other deck to regular commuters.

Accessibility would be wheelchair areas at the midlevel floors. Most baggage racks could be at the midlevel areas, to reduce baggage hassle of lifting bags up/down stairs.

And since low floor doors will not be used for UPX service, additional overflow foldable baggage shelves could unfold in front of low level doors! (Only when the specific trainset is currently in UPX service mode rather than RER mode)

Huge fleet commonalty opportunity if it can work out?

 

[vic]

With the tunnel between Dundas West and Bloor supposed to be done in two years and a lot of advertising I am actually seriously strating to question again whether UP can crry all the passengers. Every time I take it during rush hour it's standing room only and while RER will relieve it from what I'm seeing we may not have Kitchener Line RER for another 7 years.

I wonder how many people transfer from TTC to UP to commute downtown though (Has anyone counted that before?). I know many locals walk-in (or even park'n'ride...sigh...) to use the UP to get downtown, but I'm not sure it's worth TTC+UP fare. The TTC connection won't impact walk-ins for UP, though it will be awesome for those of us on the east side of the tracks to access the subway. So what I'm saying is: I don't think the connection will have a huge impact on "commuter" UP ridership where the standing room only happens.

The bigger impact will be if/when fare integration happens between the TTC and GO/RER/Smarttrack/whatever.

 

[TOareaFan]

I wonder how many people transfer from TTC to UP to commute downtown though (Has anyone counted that before?). I know many locals walk-in (or even park'n'ride...sigh...) to use the UP to get downtown, but I'm not sure it's worth TTC+UP fare. The TTC connection won't impact walk-ins for UP, though it will be awesome for those of us on the east side of the tracks to access the subway. So what I'm saying is: I don't think the connection will have a huge impact on "commuter" UP ridership where the standing room only happens.

The bigger impact will be if/when fare integration happens between the TTC and GO/RER/Smarttrack/whatever.

There's parking at that station?

I would think the big winners with a tunnel connection are

1. as you say, locals on the east side of the tracks going to the TTC
2. EB UP/GO passengers who disembark at Bloor Station and want to continue their commute via TTC
3. WB TTC passengers who want to switch to the UP to the airport (and, yes, I know about the rocket bus and the relative cost but there will always be people who prefer the train).

 

[vic]

There's parking at that station?

No.... but people in my neighbourhood who have on-street parking permits (area 1A) are known to drive to closer on-street parking spots within the same area (E.g. drive from Perth and Hugo to Perth and Randolph to catch train). Thinking about it now, the TTC connection will likely make that happen even more.

 

[torontocolin]

With Bloor in particular, I imagine it will largely self-regulate. If there's capacity, people may transfer at Dundas West to take the train if they value the time saved, especially since for that distance standing room only is a non-issue. If there's no capacity, they will quickly adjust their habits to stick with the subway, as the time savings effective evaporate if you miss just one packed train on a 15 minute headway. While it's possible that they might only use the UPX to travel home, which *could* create a capacity issue for airport-bound customers, I think most people are creatures of habit and will just use the same way to travel both directions.

Mount Dennis is in a similar position, since there will also be an alternative and cheaper higher order transit option there. Weston always seemed to me like the obvious commuter station, since the time savings vs taking the TTC are potentially huge.

 

[TOareaFan]

Weston always seemed to me like the obvious commuter station, since the time savings vs taking the TTC are potentially huge.

And that is really what has evolved......Westonites seem to have abandoned GO trains in favour of the UP....they are actin totally rational in this regard....they are leaving a less comfortable option for a more comfortable one with much higher frequencies.

 

[steveintoronto]

While it's possible that they might only use the UPX to travel home, which *could* create a capacity issue for airport-bound customers

This has been a concern for some time, not just recently, and I've never travelled to Union in the morning peak, but have in the evening one, and what has happened in the past (It's been a few months since I travelled outbound at afternoon peak) is that Pearson passengers line up separately from other destinations, and they board first. Since they're paying a premium fare, that makes perfect sense. So I suspect there are ways of ensuring the Pearson travellers retain priority boarding, at least at Union.

 

[vic]

And that is really what has evolved......Westonites seem to have abandoned GO trains in favour of the UP....they are actin totally rational in this regard....they are leaving a less comfortable option for a more comfortable one with much higher frequencies.

I don't commute downtown, but I use the UP anytime I go anywhere near Union Station. I never bother looking at the GO schedule anymore when I know the Union-bound train is at 00/15/30/45 from Bloor. And it's a fancy-pants highly subsidized train. Of course people will ditch the GO. Will probably re-balance somewhat with RER. I just hope the GO and UP trains don't come at the same time

 

[Voltz]

Would the door spacing on the kiss trains match the current doors or would they need to be rebuilt? I wonder how UPX service would operate when a rebuild was occuring. Will also be interesting to see what UPX daily ridership looks like with the new fare policy, whats the current daily ridership?

I doubt that UPX will still be around with full 15 minute RER service with the railway corridor diverted to the transit terminal at the Airport, would there even be a need for it or even room on the railway corridor with VIA or HSR also operating?

Although I do think it would be better to just have a people mover from the railway corridor to the Airport terminals instead of going through the much larger expense and hassle of diverting the tracks to the transit terminal, where passengers would still need to take a people mover to the terminals anyway.

 

[dowlingm]

I suspect we are much more likely to get something variation of what NJT get as Arrow III replacements - especially if Bombardier makes them!

 

[Streety McCarface]

Hmm, maybe Kawasaki M8's hopefully not Silverliners!

Anything by Kawasaki or Siemens would be a blessing. Based on the US, they've been the only punctual companies (of the NTT in New York, the best ones are by far the R143s, R142As, R188s, and R160Bs, which are all made by Kawasaki or Siemens) to supply trains, and having metrolinx rely on Alstom for LRVs AND RER cars will be a bad idea (Similar to the bombardier fiasco).

 

[dowlingm]

Hmm, maybe Kawasaki M8's hopefully not Silverliners!

I don't know how the Denver ones are doing but the Philly S-Vs were terrible...

Not sure what we can assume about Alstom going forward. In theory their combination with Siemens should mean a robust supply chain but it may also mean some vehicle families which might have been offered for RER will be deprecated.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I don't know how the Denver ones are doing but the Philly S-Vs were terrible...

Not sure what we can assume about Alstom going forward. In theory their combination with Siemens should mean a robust supply chain but it may also mean some vehicle families which might have been offered for RER will be deprecated.

All SEPTA Silverliners except for the Silverliner Vs are really good cars. Based on what my uncle says (who lives in Denver), the Silverliner-Vs there are pretty bad.