Allandale25
Senior Member
If the line is ever electrified I wonder how much that would save on operating costs. Also, could it ever move to computer-controlled trains to reduce the crew costs?
Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited
If the line is ever electrified I wonder how much that would save on operating costs. Also, could it ever move to computer-controlled trains to reduce the crew costs?
zmonkey
New Member
I don't like how the Star is comparing this to TTC or Go, those two have high daily ridership for people commuting to work. UP is a specialized service, it will always need a high per person subsidy. Look at Via, it gets a massive per person subsidy - where are all the complaints about that? The reality is this is built, it will always need a subsidy just by the nature of what it does. Total subsidies in absolute terms will be lower than the TTC or Go trains, but that is obviously because utilization rates are so much lower and its a niche offering. I fly a lot and I'll take the Up 6 times maybe this year, I'll just uber/get a ride other times.
People need to stop with the Liberals not reversing the Harris cuts, the TTC got at max 90 million from the province for operations prior to Harris (it's operations costs were about 180 million and they got around half at peak from province). The TTC now gets a gas tax from the federal and provincial government, which are more than the 90 million it ever got previously, the provincial portion is around 75-80 million. But the issue is operation costs have soared about 800-900 million from 200 million in 15 years. And 75% of those costs are salaries, the province has no control over salaries so they should not just be picking up the slack to pay the TTC staff.
What the province has done is put up money for capital, 800 million for Spadina extension, 800 Million for Scarborough, 100% of crosstown, lots of smaller investment, 150 million for the relief study (which is almost 2 years of operations from the Pre Harris days). TTC is getting boat loads of money, and building the network out. At some point the TTC should see why there salaries have ballooned so much. The TTC this year from the province and federal government is getting around 1.2 billion in Subsidies, with around 1 billion being for capital.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Yeah, that's not what the Liberals were peddling to voters. The Ontario Liberals sold the UPX to Ontarians as a revenue neutral airport link. That was their business case. I expect them to live up to it; otherwise they should face the fallout for it.
The subsidy relative to other projects matters because Ontarians likely would not have supported the project knowing that it would require massive subsidies, especially as our transit systems are among the least subsidized in NA.
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
I think what is also important to know is if all the "new" users not going to Pearson are actually new or just people who use to take the GO train and now take the UPX and how much TTC ridership to Pearson has declined since the introduction of UPX. If there have been declines in both due to switching to the UPX then that's a real problem as people are transferring from a low subsidy system to a high subsidy one.
micheal_can
Senior Member
They have promised much and have failed miserably. Sadly, too many people will vote for them next year.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
It's also notable that the Liberals progressed the UPX while simultaneously withdrawing their commitment to construct the Eglinton Line to Pearson Airport. That line would have been operating since last year, if the Liberals had kept their promise.
How does the ridership of the Eglinton Line at the Airport compare to to the ridership of the UPX? The TTC expected a combined 1750 people to use the Eglinton Line stations located in the Airport lands at peak hour. That's not particularly large ridership, but it sounds competitive (if not better) than the ridership of the UPX
Eglinton would come with the obvious benefit of serving a substantial number of communities outside of the airport area as well, rather than bypassing most of the city. Eglinton would not have required a ridiculous subsidy, and the capital costs of Eglinton Line and the UPX are similar in scale. Eglinton would've also presumably had the more affordable standard TTC fare structure.
And of course the government proceeded with the project while seemingly few people in the industry believed it had a remotely realistic business case.
It's ridiculous that so many want to sweep the UPX issues under the rug. It was the wrong project to build, and is completely unable to achieve its business case. The government needs to be held to account for their failures. I suspect a lot of people here would be singing a different tune if it were the former PC government pushing a high subsidy, low ridership "boutique" train to the airport while simultaneously scrapping the planned LRT to the airport.
steveintoronto
Superstar
What do you propose? A Grand Inquisition?
It was a royal screw-up, doubtless, in many ways. Like many others. The challenge now is to maximize return (and not just fiscally), not repeat the mistake, and re-engineer the service to do more for the massive subsidy it's costing.
dowlingm
Senior Member
that business case is deader than dead. The LPO will probably take some punishment at the next election but I doubt if UPX specifically moves more than a few hundred votes.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Did the Ford mayoralty pass you by? That was not just a provincial plan but a city one, which Ford declared (probably illegally but he got away with doing it) dead on his arrival.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
You got this decision history wrong. The Liberals cut $4 Billion in transit funding in March of 2010. This resulted in the cancellation of the Eglinton West LRT, between Jane and Pearson Airport long before Ford was mayor. This cancelation of the LRT to the airport was approximately the same time as the government was progressing the UPX project.
See this Transit Toronto article from May 2010: http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/weblog/2010/05/17-5_in_10_me.shtml
ssiguy2
Senior Member
True that QP cut their spending but after Toronto was done bitching about it , the idea of Toronto donating even a nickel of it's own money to help make up the difference never even occurred to them. Toronto is truly unique amongst world cities.............City Hall creates hugely expensive transit plans and then turning to senior levels of government with the bill and telling them they should pay for all of it.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
UPX was never a Toronto idea, it started as a private company called Blue 22 and when it failed metrolix took it over.
Tuscani01
Senior Member
Somewhat correct. It actually started as a Federal government project, launched by Jean Chretien. It was put out to tender, and a contract was awarded to build and operate the line. Fast forward a decade where everything about this project was at a standstill - at which point the Province stepped in to build it themselves.
The fault solely lies on the Feds and Province. You are correct that this was never a City of TO project.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Damn - I thought I had the history right. That said, 2009-10 was when the Provincial deficit peaked when the recession was hammering Ontario. Some retrenchment/deferral of projects is going to happen in situations like that. The part of Crosstown being built is, I would argue, more critical to build sooner since construction inflation would impact a tunnelled section harder.
muller877
Senior Member
If you want total conspiracy theory...
SNC Lavalin that was the key backer of the Blue 22 plan.
SNC has previously accepted a plea bargain finding them guilty of illegal contributions to the Liberal Party.
SNC has accepted that they are guilty of bribing various Quebec municipalities
SNC had a contract to build the Union-Pearson line but somehow was able to exit the contract with no financial penalties.
And guess who organized this chaos? David Collenette
The same person who messed up a 2 km link to the airport was then asked by Wynne to do the HSR study.
What a great choice!!!!!
...maybe for the Liberal party only