Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

crs1026 said:
Well, parts of the project - such as the West Toronto Diamond - started in 2007 and are far from on time or budget. It's amazing just how shameless these guys are at self-aggrandising and spinning around the facts - "Since we assumed control"....it may not have always been a Metrolinx project, but it was certainly always a Province of Ontario/GO Transit project.

All the same, I'm happy to celebrate its completion. The reasons for any added costs are not egregious.

- Paul
Click to expand...

West Toronto Diamond is not/was not part of the UPe project....it was included in the concurrent but separate GTS project.

Not sure it was always an Ontario/GO project....was it not the feds, through Transport Canada that put the RFP out that led to the original SNC Lavalin "Blue 22" project?
 
TOareaFan said:
West Toronto Diamond is not/was not part of the UPe project....it was included in the concurrent but separate GTS project.

Not sure it was always an Ontario/GO project....was it not the feds, through Transport Canada that put the RFP out that led to the original SNC Lavalin "Blue 22" project?
Click to expand...

Well, it certainly morphed in its lifetime.

This press release from 2009

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/472987/major-construction-begins-at-west-toronto-diamond

says in part

"Of the $277 million, $159
million is being funded through the GO Transit Rail Improvement Program (GO
TRIP) funded by the Government of Canada, the Province of Ontario and
municipal governments in the Greater Toronto area through the Canada Strategic
Infrastructure Fund."

The press release notes a completion date of Spring 2011.

This paper, written in 2007, shows that the project was already well scoped and in progress by that date

http://conf.tac-atc.ca/english/resourcecentre/readingroom/conference/conf2007/docs/s7/anderson.pdf

The oldest material on the GTS web site date from 2010 and they do say the project will end in 2015. In that respect, it's true that the promised end date has stayed constant for the past few years. I think if you ask anyone who lives near the Junction, they will tell you that the promised completion dates changed repeatedly over the length of the project.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
Well, it certainly morphed in its lifetime.

This press release from 2009

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/472987/major-construction-begins-at-west-toronto-diamond

says in part

"Of the $277 million, $159
million is being funded through the GO Transit Rail Improvement Program (GO
TRIP) funded by the Government of Canada, the Province of Ontario and
municipal governments in the Greater Toronto area through the Canada Strategic
Infrastructure Fund."

The press release notes a completion date of Spring 2011.

This paper, written in 2007, shows that the project was already well scoped and in progress by that date

http://conf.tac-atc.ca/english/resourcecentre/readingroom/conference/conf2007/docs/s7/anderson.pdf

The oldest material on the GTS web site date from 2010 and they do say the project will end in 2015. In that respect, it's true that the promised end date has stayed constant for the past few years. I think if you ask anyone who lives near the Junction, they will tell you that the promised completion dates changed repeatedly over the length of the project.

- Paul
Click to expand...
True

Being on site these past 4/5 years, dates were changing all the time.

Old Weston Rd closure is a good example.

UPX AKA Blue22 was part of this expansion and one of the major reason for the West Toronto Diamond project.

Its over budget what every way you want to cut it.
 
jcam said:
We just bought a house in Weston, 10 minute walk from the station. I'll be GO commuting downtown, but if I go to a Jays game or have a few drinks after work, I'll be paying $15.20 to ride UP to Weston with Presto. Much cheaper than a cab and about a third the time of the TTC. I'll make that tradeoff for infrequent trips.

With it being the first line electrified, I'm banking on it being the first RER line as well (or tied for Lakeshore West for the first), or perhaps all-day 2-way service in advance of electrification.
Click to expand...

Congratulations, that sounds like a very smart choice. Now if only people living at Liberty Village, King-Queen, Dundas, Dupont, St Clair, and Eglinton could say the same...

ehlow said:
Re: UPX as a regular service. To me it seems like they priced trips like Weston-Lawrence to Union or Dundas West/Bloor to Union in order to discourage people from using it for commuting or other trips.

This is speculation but I'd guess that if those trips were priced more affordably the trains & frequency wouldn't be able to handle that high ridership.
Click to expand...

But that's a choice right? We could have chosen a different technology and got more vehicles etc.

Some people here think that real local service could replace the UPE in future after electrification, if it isn't successful in current form. I don't think that's how government works. The agencies involved will be very reluctant to admit a mistake, or to cut the fares so dramatically, once the UPE is in place. It will be very hard to dislodge from those precious two tracks for a long time to come.
 
k10ery said:
Congratulations, that sounds like a very smart choice. Now if only people living at Liberty Village, King-Queen, Dundas, Dupont, St Clair, and Eglinton could say the same...



But that's a choice right? We could have chosen a different technology and got more vehicles etc.

Some people here think that real local service could replace the UPE in future after electrification, if it isn't successful in current form. I don't think that's how government works. The agencies involved will be very reluctant to admit a mistake, or to cut the fares so dramatically, once the UPE is in place. It will be very hard to dislodge from those precious two tracks for a long time to come.
Click to expand...

You could also add "and chosen to spend a whole lot more money".
 
k10ery said:
It will be very hard to dislodge from those precious two tracks for a long time to come.
Click to expand...

I don't know where this idea that UP will steal 2 tracks from other services for all time came from. Globally, suburban rail systems without particularly exotic signalling systems can run 10 tph per direction on two tracks.
 
Platform 27 said:
I don't know where this idea that UP will steal 2 tracks from other services for all time came from. Globally, suburban rail systems without particularly exotic signalling systems can run 10 tph per direction on two tracks.
Click to expand...

Exactly. A premium Airport link and local transit should not be seen as mutually exclusive on these tracks. No different than express and all stop services elsewhere.
 
Platform 27 said:
I don't know where this idea that UP will steal 2 tracks from other services for all time came from. Globally, suburban rail systems without particularly exotic signalling systems can run 10 tph per direction on two tracks.
Click to expand...

True but the ability to do so is still dependant on several other factores such as the acceleration profile of the vehicles, station dwell times and signal block lengths.
 
TOareaFan said:
You could also add "and chosen to spend a whole lot more money".
Click to expand...

So you don't favour spending money on downtown transit expansion? Ok then. But it's going to happen, and s lot more money than this would cost.

Platform 27 said:
I don't know where this idea that UP will steal 2 tracks from other services for all time came from. Globally, suburban rail systems without particularly exotic signalling systems can run 10 tph per direction on two tracks.
Click to expand...

As I understand it the long run constraint is in the USRC and Union Station.

Woodbridge_Heights said:
Exactly. A premium Airport link and local transit should not be seen as mutually exclusive on these tracks. No different than express and all stop services elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Correct me if I am wrong, but Metrolinx has no intention of sharing those tracks for Toronto or other services, and ce rtainly not to share those platforms at Union.

Anyway guys let's have this discussion on a few months when we know something about UPE demand. I may be wrong about that...
 
k10ery said:
So you don't favour spending money on downtown transit expansion? Ok then. But it's going to happen, and s lot more money than this would cost.
Click to expand...

Do you really think that is what I said? You, like so many people who criticize UPe, like to list the things that we "could" have done with the line .......but always leave out the money part....leaving the impression that all of those things could have been done with the same expenditure. I was simply, in the sake of accuracy, including the money in your list of "we could haves".
 
vegeta_skyline said:
True but the ability to do so is still dependant on several other factores such as the acceleration profile of the vehicles, station dwell times and signal block lengths.
Click to expand...

Exactly. The new signalling gives a lot of capacity, but heavy diesel-powered GO trains, 45mph crossovers, and a "flat" junction at Wice (where the airport spur diverges, forcing UPX trains to cross over in conflict with through movements) will be continuing constraints.

Electrify and things will improve. Complete the fourth track and many things will become easy.

The early (pre-2010) documents spoke to the project delivering upgraded GO service by 2014 and then an Airport shuttle in 2015. Revisions to the Big Move in 2012 reversed that, with UPE (now UPX) getting priority and the GO promise restricted to the 29-train thing. So there is definitely objective evidence that UPX was pushed to the forefront and GO downgraded in priority. That organizational mentality may be hard to reverse.

I won't cycle back through the whole premium-versus-transit debate. UPX is a done deal and it isn't a bad thing in itself...but the opportunity to add Kitchener-Brampton-Etobicoke ridership through better GO Regional is a huge potential benefit to the GTA, potentially dwarfing the value of the premium airport link. Metrolinx needs to keep this one moving.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
Exactly. The new signalling gives a lot of capacity, but heavy diesel-powered GO trains, 45mph crossovers, and a "flat" junction at Wice (where the airport spur diverges, forcing UPX trains to cross over in conflict with through movements) will be continuing constraints.

- Paul
Click to expand...

The junction at Wice has no bearing on the overall capacity - in normal circumstances the UPX trains will run on the south/west two tracks, and the other trains will use the north/east one and two tracks of the corridor. There won't be any crossing movements until Strachan.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
smallspy said:
The junction at Wice has no bearing on the overall capacity - in normal circumstances the UPX trains will run on the south/west two tracks, and the other trains will use the north/east one and two tracks of the corridor. There won't be any crossing movements until Strachan.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Click to expand...

Dan - that's true, provided GO only uses the northmost track (current T1, which will eventually be T2) east of Wice, and UPX only use the two southmost tracks east of Wice.

The two Weston Sub main tracks west of Wice correspond to the northmost and middle tracks east of Wice.

The point being made was that the two services can be interleaved. To do that, someone would have to run "left handed" and that middle track would be shared.

- Paul
 
Saw the UPX on a test run from my apartment last night. It actually scared me, I wasn't looking for it on purpose. All of a sudden, it just fired like a bat out of hell from the Weston Tunnel, and to the west across the Humber. It had to be climbing to 90 mph, I'm used to hearing and seeing GO trains roar out of there, probably going 45 mph max.

We have been tracking its progress and analyzing its readiness for launch here, but its something else to see it zipping across the skyline.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top