Toronto Toronto City Hall and Nathan Phillips Square | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto | Perkins&Will

Or a Balzac's?

(BTW does anyone know how the Liberty Village Balzac's is faring?)
 
What a let down. For me the five biggest problems with NPS are.

1. The raised walkway. It separates NPS from the city. It blocks the view of City Hall from Queen Street (Toronto doesn't have any spectacular views). It's underused. It's not an inviting space. etc.

2. East side entrance from Bay Street. Or lack of. Here NPS blocks itself off and creates another barrier.

3. The ramp up to the podium level. Totally useless and ugly. It's always closed. Just look at the hiccup it creates to the otherwise graceful curved north edge of the square.

4. West side of NPS. An unintegrated dead zone anchored by a concrete bunker.

5. Location of the Peace Garden. Just exactly what is this thing? It seems to have been arbitrarily placed. It looks like an afterthought, like some abandoned orphan wandering through a cold empty space.

So what did we get from this competition? Trees, lots and lots of trees. Campfires and planters too. I think we should have requested submissions from the University of Guelph's school of agriculture. Something tells me that GREEN is the current colour of choice.

I'm very disappointed.
 
I think you're missing the point.

All of the proposals put a emphasis on USING the elevanted walkway. They drive pedestrian traffic up there by making it more accessible and inviting.

If you've been up there, it's a nice place to sit and people watch. You can see people skating, you can appreciate City Hall from an elevated standpoint, you can watch pedestrians on Queen St, you can look down Bay St.

The podium, which is accessible via the ramp is also put to use so eliminating the ramp would guarantee that nobody would go up there.

As for the elevated walkways blocking the view to City Hall, Zeidler's proposal solves that by removing the view blocking concrete walkways and replacing the sides with glass.

Finally, the West and East edges:

Bay St. is solved by a couple of the proposals by making them long wide sidewalks which people will use because there will be no need to cross the street to avoid the current dark, patchy, homeless ridden stretch.
The West edge is put to good use by mostly all the proposals.

I don't see what you're saying because all these problems are solved in one way or another by the presented proposals.
 
And even if (to play devil's advocate) the desirability/dispensibility of the walkways is up to debate, *no* sensitive party is advocating removing the podium ramp. *At all*. It's so architecturally integral, it isn't funny...
 
I don't agree metroman and adma.
There is access to the podium from within City Hall and from the eastern walkway. Do you really think people will hike up that long ramp to get to the podium because trees are planted up there. Besides, it was designed primarily as a driveway not a pedestrian walkway. Why do you think it has been moribund for over thirty years. The podium is a wonderful space but there are better ways to allow easy access to it.
Glass walls on the southern portion of the raised walkway would help mitigate the blocked view from Queen street but it's a rather timid solution.
It's been my understanding that Revell's intention was to extend the walkway all the way to Queen Street allowing an unobstructed view of City Hall from under the walkway. In any case the walkway is under used and it does block the view of our beautiful City Hall. Them's the facts.
 
*Architecturally* integral, jozl, architecturally integral. The walkways are one thing; the ramp's another. It's *part* of the "our beautiful City Hall" the walkways "block the view of". Destroy the ramp, and you destroy the architecture. Simple.
 
Adma, I respect the concern you have for maintaining Revell's vision for NPS, or at least not destroying it . I am not proposing that we create something totally new. In fact I think my vision for the square is less intrusive than many of the add–ons I saw in the competition submissions. I have been working as a graphic designer for over twenty eight years. I know a little bit about design integrity.
I challenge anyone go to Queen Street south of NPS and look north toward City Hall then go into the square walk to the north end and look east toward the ramp, then navigate your way around the concrete to Bay Street once you're there turn around an look west toward the square. Tell me what you saw. Was it beautiful? Were you inspired? Did you see anyone on the elevated walkway, on the ramp or the podium? Please , let me know.
 
jozl:

Actually, I took part in the public consultation/design charette process and had the opportunity to not only go onto the walkways surrounding the square but to actually use the ramp to the podium level, which is normally closed as well. To say that such an experience wasn't "inspiring" would be totally inaccurate. In fact, I would argue travelling up the ramp is a piece de resistence in the argument for preserving the integrity of Revell's vision, and it is an experience that should be provided for the masses. What isn't beautiful of all the elements you've mentioned is more often than not the result of neglect, not shortcomings in design - and what shortcomings there are is easily rectifiable with less intrusive solutions (like those suggested in the 4 proposals) than what you're proposing.

AoD
 
Even if the ramp was "designed primarily as a driveway" - which I question - it was never used as one: in the 1970's and '80's we strolled up the gentle incline without having to compete with automobiles. And we did it without the attraction of trees at the top. We went there because it was a public space, part of the enjoyable promenade of the Square, and granted us a nice view.

Passing beneath the low walkways into the Square creates a sense of making a transition and an arrival.
 
I also took part in the public consultation/design charette process. I also went up the ramp to the podium. I LOVE the podium. I hate the ramp.
I've lived in T.O. since 1970. I don't think I've seen more than a few dozen people use the walkway or the ramp. It seems your inspired pormenade is shared by very few. Why do you suppose these elements of NPS are under used, shut down, or ignored? What other proof do you need? I think it's pretty obvious that the public has already voted on this.
 
jozl:

Do recall that the podium and other elements were meant to accomodate more intense uses that was never provided; is it any wonder then that the space is not well used? Besides, equating popularity and use to whether an element should stay or not is a bad idea.

AoD
 
> Re: NPS Design Competition Public Meeting Feb 20

I've also lived here since 1970 ( and I'm also a graphic designer - yikes, are we the same person? ) and when the ramp and walkways were open to the public we used them.
 
AlvinofDiaspar,

Besides, equating popularity and use to whether an element should stay or not is a bad idea.
Click to expand...

If the success of our most famous PUBLIC square which is anchored by City Hall and paid for with PUBLIC money isn't judged by popular reaction then how should it be judged?

It's obvious that many of us feel pretty passionate about this topic. I think that's great! I really think that there are solutions that can accommodate most of our concerns. I guess I just don't feel the same vigor went into the design submissions that I witnessed in some of the proposals at the public consultations or in this forum. This will be a long process. I hope the results will be worthy of the effort.
 
One of the great zen like experiences of our city lies in contemplating the diminishing, underside wedge-shaped "dead space" created by the ramp as it descends to kiss the ground of the Square. Right up until the point of impact, it's like pondering infinity.
 
building babel,

I've also lived here since 1970 ( and I'm also a graphic designer - yikes, are we the same person?)
Click to expand...

That's too funny...and a little scary. Maybe we are the same person!
Please don't misunderstand me. I don't want to get rid of all the little oddities in NPS I just want to offer a big spectacular view as well. Make sense?
I see you're not too busy today either.
 
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