Toronto TeaHouse 501 Yonge Condominiums | 170.98m | 52s | Lanterra | a—A

See, to some people, there is a reality outside of glass boxes. I know it's hard for you to believe, but there is so much more. I know you think very highly of how well-versed you are in neo-modernism, but if you spoke to an architecture prof at somewhere like Ryerson, you'd get a smack upside the head for being so narrow-minded.

You keep trying to foist your preferred aesthetic onto the rest of using arguments about design purity and functionality when in reality, it's just your opinion of these designs. Don't try to constrain all of us with such a narrow view of architecture in 2012. There's tons of us here who love neo-modernism but we also know when to ask for more.

Yes Spire, a truly inspiring post there but I think you've missed the point (well, I know you've missed the point but hey, let's talk). I argue on behalf of quality, regardless of the firm involved. There's no foisting but if you feel that I push too hard in one direction, then foist back. I recently had a similar discussion with The_Starchitect in the Couture thread about the fact that there are two sides to the creation of any building - the design phase and the construction phase. Even if you dislike the way that a certain firm conceptualizes their buildings (a subjective judgement which you are free to make but it seems the firm you condemn is most-represented in your signature-cum-burglarized-Koolhaas-flag), there is a certain objectivity to the way that one can see and evaluate them in the real world. In the end, I feel that said firm is able to put together a product of higher quality than any other in this city at this point. For example, if you can look at a project like Aura or Couture and tell me that it has been designed (if you really are a student of the building arts then you'll know to look past the plastic forms a building assumes and to the details when evaluating how deft an architect's hand is) and is being assembled with the same care as something like the Four Seasons or even Casa for that matter (much lower price point) then I'd either say you're lying or you just haven't had the proper training.

For example, the next time you pass Casa (a building you've professed not to like the podium of), take half an hour and get really close to it. Take in the attention to detail, particularly in the connections and note how everything has been reduced to its essence. This allows the materiality of the elements which make up the building, the dark brick for example, to play the starring role rather than the boxy form it assumes. Examine how the brick meets and connects with the glass panels which form the primary facade and remember that hours went into that one simple detail. Another good example is the Peter Street Condos podium which some have claimed as a 'miss,' but which went through at least twenty different iterations before a final design was settled upon. Why bother? Because there's a care to the way that a studio works as opposed to a factory, where each piece is painstakingly agonized over before an appropriate solution is found. I get particularly irked when some say 'a four-year old could have designed that,' since it smacks of the same sort of blind philistinism of someone who would examine a Rothko and claim that 'they could do that 'cause it's just a bunch of blurry lines.' Wrong again Bob.

Now waltz down the street and have a look at Aura where everything has an air of hurried, 'I wanna get out of here 'cause it's Friday' compromise. It's over-engineered (it's faster to over engineer than to design everything individually, but you knew that) and nothing really seems to fit. Look at the massive bulkheads (on the ground floor nonetheless?), the relatively small portions of clear glass set into hugely oversized opaque frames and the way the whole thing is being swathed in nothing but that dull glass. It's then you might come to appreciate materiality that 'others' found so essential to their building on Charles and which you seem to have hitherto overlooked. It's an obese, soulless nod to capitalism and the extruded floor-plate condo which has come to dominate the oeuvre of some developers, particularly when one of two much larger firms are brought on for the job. What's particularly gob smacking about a project like Aura (and someone else has rightly noted this before) is how such a bunch of talentless hacks were allowed to design such a significant building in the first place. But hey, its epppppiccccccc right (more spandrel!)?

So if you don't know what you're looking at, or for that matter are looking for, how can you derisively claim that it's you who is triumphing over the 'narrow minded' and daring to ask for 'more?' I won't bring the ol' Mies' baggage about the perils of 'more' into this, but I will remind you that he sure didn't advise that: 'God is in the fizzbang shapes and spandrel panels.'

I'd also avoid telling others publicly that such-and-such a prof would 'totally skewwwl u' without knowing who that person is or what they do 'cause in the end its you that looks like the uninformed undergrad drowning in a graduate level seminar (adma's excellent phrase, not mine).
 
Collective /facepalm

Also, I WANT to like the podium of CASA. In a vaccum, I would absolutely admire it. It's the context that's all wrong. I live almost literally across from the thing and I'm not happy with what it does to the street. I could stare all day at its fine details and restraint (which it does possess, you are right about that) but that doesn't make it work. I think that might sum up where I'm coming from here. Simplicity of form isn't all there is to architecture-- this isn't art. Architecture doesn't exist in a vacuum-- there are much greater functional, day-to-day demands put on it, warranting a different reaction from its daily users than to sit and ponder it/ stare at it for days.
 
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See, to some people, there is a reality outside of glass boxes. I know it's hard for you to believe, but there is so much more. I know you think very highly of how well-versed you are in neo-modernism, but if you spoke to an architecture prof at somewhere like Ryerson, you'd get a smack upside the head for being so narrow-minded.

You keep trying to foist your preferred aesthetic onto the rest of using arguments about design purity and functionality when in reality, it's just your opinion of these designs. Don't try to constrain all of us with such a narrow view of architecture in 2012. There's tons of us here who love neo-modernism but we also know when to ask for more.

Greatest post in the history of UT. This deserves an award.
 
Even if you dislike the way that a certain firm conceptualizes their buildings, there is a certain objectivity to the way that one can see and evaluate them in the real world. In the end, I feel that said firm is able to put together a product of higher quality than any other in this city at this point.

But that's the point. I don't think that anybody here is contesting the claim that aA is exceptional at executing its vision. There's no doubt that it is. But being able to deftly execute a design doesn't elevate an otherwise uninteresting concept into an interesting one. For many, a superior though clumsily executed concept is far more engaging and interesting than a perfectly executed but unoriginal concept. That's why people tend to be more attracted to projects like L Tower or Aura than Karma or Peter Street Condos. People will forgive a lot if there is an attempt to be bold or unique. The fact is that no matter how much attention to detail or how many hours are spent agonizing over "how brick meets and connects with the glass panels" it's not going to make an uninteresting concept suddenly engaging. I'll concede without question that aA produces the highest quality work in the city, but I also think that its designs are usually devoid of character. aA is great at the minor details but can't seem to see the forest for the trees.

When aA does manage to combine an interesting concept with nearly flawless execution (such as with X Condo and hopefully Theatre Park), we end up with an EPPPPICCCCC masterpiece. If only we had a firm consistently capable of both concept and execution...
 
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And the frustrating thing is, it doesn't matter how many people sympathize with my viewpoint. Because he's still right. If only WE would all take the time to sit and appreciate clean, restrained glass-clad neo-modernism designs more, then WE'd be enlightened too!
 
Id just like to thank you guys for making known that other opinions are accepted here. By my own long time experience, it makes posting here a lot more comfortable knowing that. This site is amazing for information and insight into Toronto's ever changing landscape, but its also seems like a hostile environment for anyone who differs in opinion, being claimed a troll and derided or even silenced by moderators. The "elitism" is somewhat intrusive and keeps myself and probably many like me away from contributing. Its just nice seeing someone call out the bullcrap. Thanks :)
 
But that's the point. I don't think that anybody here is contesting the claim that aA is exceptional at executing its vision. There's no doubt that it is. But being able to able to deftly execute a design doesn't elevate an otherwise uninteresting concept into an interesting one. For many, a superior though clumsily executed concept is far more engaging and interesting than a perfectly executed but unoriginal concept. That's why people tend to be more attracted to projects like L Tower or Aura than Karma or Peter Street Condos. People will forgive a lot if there is an attempt to be bold or unique. The fact is that no matter how much attention to detail or how many hours are spent agonizing over "how brick meets and connects with the glass panels" it's not going to make an uninteresting concept suddenly engaging. I'll concede without question that aA produces the highest quality work in the city, but I also think that its designs are usually devoid of character. aA is great at the minor details but can't seem to see the forest for the trees.

When aA does manage to combine an interesting concept with nearly flawless execution (such as with X Condo and hopefully Theatre Park), we end up with an EPPPPICCCCC masterpiece. If only we had a firm consistently capable of both concept and execution...

Why is there this desire for every building to be an interesting "concept". Isn't it enough that a slim tower containg small condos, that is on a side street sandwiched between other buildings (ie Karma), be unintrusive and well made? The city is full of post and beam warehouses and victorian houses built in the late 1800s -- was this a tiring "concept"? No, they are fabric buildings in the city. If I am counting right there are currently proposed or under construction over 10 aA buildings between Yonge and Bay, College and Davenport. The result will be a fabric of well-made 30-60 storey buildings that work well together and provide good housing stock. They may be tall, but buildings of this height are the new fabric buildings in the area. They will provide an effective, modern and clean contrast to the lovely historical buildings in the area, especially to the west -- the Bay to Queen's Park/College to Bloor area is one of the nicest concentrations of old buildings in the city and the aA buildings provide a height contrast without stealing attention away. This really does not seem the place for high concept buildings. I would actually say that replacing, for example, Burano/Murano/U/Karma/Casa with Ice/Theatre Park/Market Wharf/Waterlink would have been inappropriate for the area. When dealing in areas where more "conceptually interesting" designs are appropriate there are good designs from aA. But regardless, given what's been built on and around Bay north of College in the last 20 years we should be thrilled about what aA is building. Areas like Liberty Village and West Queen West would be so much better off with aA work in those areas.
 
^^ We don't think every building needs to be an icon... we simply don't think every building needs to be an aA-style glass neo-modernist piece. That's not a universally superior approach, and people need to stop deluding themselves into thinking it is. Diversity in approaches makes a city a place where everyone can more comfortably exist and operate.
 
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^^ We don't think every building needs to be an icon... we simply don't think every building needs to be an aA-style glass neo-modernist piece. That's not a universally superior approach, and people need to stop deluding themselves into thinking it is. Diversity in approaches makes a city a place where everyone can more comfortably exist and operate.

Preach it brother. The 60s are dead. Our architects are living in the 60s. I'm so sick of minimalist design.
 

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