Toronto Sugar Wharf Condominiums (Phase 1) | 231m | 70s | Menkes | a—A

Cell shot from Hanlan's point just now.

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ProjectEnd said:
The one in Litho does quite well. It's always busy when I've been there. It does have free parking in the basement though and fronts right on Dupont.
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This one also has free parking so that shouldn’t be an impediment. The lack of visibility definitely is though.

That said, I find the LCBO to be pretty dead compared to the predecessor across the street as well, and they have the prime retail space.
 
I have actually had friends who live in the suburbs complain that they can't go there any more. Even though there is free parking. For some reason, suburbanites have an intense aversion to parking in an underground garage, even if it's free and it means a much shorter walk to the entrance. They just love malls too much.
 
Northern Light said:
I will stick this slightly tangential post here...........

That Farm Boy is almost certainly losing a lot of $$

I am told the shrink level is nuts (shrink is any inventory unavailable for sale, which can be theft or in this case, perishable product turning/expiring before it can be sold.)

***

It's overall a good location, and as occupancies pick up here it should do quite well, but I think they were a few months early in opening. That in combination with a near invisible entrance off Cooper Street, and no at-grade presence, is hurting them. While Loblaws just to the east draws well, it's a store you can't miss, and it has obvious, ample, free parking encouraging people to come from a distance, where anyone not local probably has little idea that Farm Boy is even there.
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I may catch a bit of flack for this, but I feel like it's playing out as I suspected it would as of yet.

The surrounding few blocks in general, I feel will never be that lively because of (at least in part) the continuing failure from firms like A-a to provide a truly interesting public realm or activation. Farm Boy will probably pick up, and the finished park may have a couple days in the summer with many people, but in the general sense, people will never see this area as a destination, and that unfortunately seems built into the design on purpose.

While not specifically just an issue here, the lack of public realm focused photos of these buildings up to this point in this thread is noticeable, even with things mostly wrapped up at grade, and that signals to me that people find it so bland or unpleasant, nobody wants to bother to even document it. That's telling. It'd be fair to say the towers are the spotlight (they are neat for sure!), but the way this entire planned community is meant to 'interact' at grade is choppy, contains much glass and dead zones, and will very likely be worsened by poor retail leasing decisions.

It's clear to some extent, there was an active attempt here to make Sugar Wharf mirror the sensibilities of a suburb, in a city setting. It's after all, kindof the anti-thesis to the things being done The Well, Mirvish Village, 88 Queen etc. and I feel this is bad, there should be an effort to make the waterfront feel like a truly public amenity, yet I don't see a destination to be had, many will continue to opt for Queen Street, or to chill at Trinity Bellwoods.

I'm reminded of About Here's video about Vancouver's waterfront.(Mainly the idea of these spaces seemly are designed as a psuedo front yard for those living.)

I name A-a specifically because they tend lean into suburban cotemporary. For them it's neat and tidy, yet that's not what makes it urban living. It's the sensibility of a firm that continues idolizing outdated urban renewal ideas (in some ways to a socially problematic degree); a firm where warmth (warth doesn't only come from the colour of brick you choose!) or whimsy are a needless 'thrill'. That review may sound harsh, but for a firm run by a guy who makes these types of over the top and behind the back comments, criticism here is fair (and I'm not even being comparatively as harsh!). But overall, this is just how architecture is globally at the moment, so I think i'm going a little too deep into specifics here.

I say this not for doom and gloom, but as something to watch as the waterfront develops east, future parcels are seeing more innovation and new ideas, and I expect in the long haul those may be the spaces people talk about loving and spending a lot of time in. I may also just need copium because I want to see more ideas like The Well or Mirvish Village applied to some parcel on this part of the waterfront.
 
emphurent said:
I may catch a bit of flack for this, but I feel like it's playing out as I suspected it would as of yet.

The surrounding few blocks in general, I feel will never be that lively because of (at least in part) the continuing failure from firms like A-a to provide a truly interesting public realm or activation. Farm Boy will probably pick up, and the finished park may have a couple days in the summer with many people, but in the general sense, people will never see this area as a destination, and that unfortunately seems built into the design on purpose.

While not specifically just an issue here, the lack of public realm focused photos of these buildings up to this point in this thread is noticeable, even with things mostly wrapped up at grade, and that signals to me that people find it so bland or unpleasant, nobody wants to bother to even document it. That's telling. It'd be fair to say the towers are the spotlight (they are neat for sure!), but the way this entire planned community is meant to 'interact' at grade is choppy, contains much glass and dead zones, and will very likely be worsened by poor retail leasing decisions.

It's clear to some extent, there was an active attempt here to make Sugar Wharf mirror the sensibilities of a suburb, in a city setting. It's after all, kindof the anti-thesis to the things being done The Well, Mirvish Village, 88 Queen etc. and I feel this is bad, there should be an effort to make the waterfront feel like a truly public amenity, yet I don't see a destination to be had, many will continue to opt for Queen Street, or to chill at Trinity Bellwoods.

I'm reminded of About Here's video about Vancouver's waterfront.(Mainly the idea of these spaces seemly are designed as a psuedo front yard for those living.)

I name A-a specifically because they tend lean into suburban cotemporary. For them it's neat and tidy, yet that's not what makes it urban living. It's the sensibility of a firm that continues idolizing outdated urban renewal ideas (in some ways to a socially problematic degree); a firm where warmth (warth doesn't only come from the colour of brick you choose!) or whimsy are a needless 'thrill'. That review may sound harsh, but for a firm run by a guy who makes these types of over the top and behind the back comments, criticism here is fair (and I'm not even being comparatively as harsh!). But overall, this is just how architecture is globally at the moment, so I think i'm going a little too deep into specifics here.

I say this not for doom and gloom, but as something to watch as the waterfront develops east, future parcels are seeing more innovation and new ideas, and I expect in the long haul those may be the spaces people talk about loving and spending a lot of time in. I may also just need copium because I want to see more ideas like The Well or Mirvish Village applied to some parcel on this part of the waterfront.
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Good post. I may not agree with all of it, but it's a very well-considered summary.

At the end of the day, you're criticizing a particular firm (and that's fine), but the problem, as a whole, is that this isn't 'citybuilding', it's a real estate play. That's it. Menkes and Pinnacle aren't here to fulfill some notional vision of what the post-industrial waterfront can be, they're here to make money. That's unfortunate, but it's also the reality. The real scar here, as some have identified, is Queens Quay West / East. Folks talk about the Gardiner being a 'barrier', but this is far worse. Until the street is rebuilt from high-speed, car sewer, to something much better, I don't have a heck of a lot of hope for any particular project on the north side. The south side is generally better, but things like the Innovation Centre bely that same approach: it's not about cities, it's about Menkes (or whoever) making money.
 
emphurent said:
I may catch a bit of flack for this, but I feel like it's playing out as I suspected it would as of yet.

The surrounding few blocks in general, I feel will never be that lively because of (at least in part) the continuing failure from firms like A-a to provide a truly interesting public realm or activation. Farm Boy will probably pick up, and the finished park may have a couple days in the summer with many people, but in the general sense, people will never see this area as a destination, and that unfortunately seems built into the design on purpose.

While not specifically just an issue here, the lack of public realm focused photos of these buildings up to this point in this thread is noticeable, even with things mostly wrapped up at grade, and that signals to me that people find it so bland or unpleasant, nobody wants to bother to even document it. That's telling. It'd be fair to say the towers are the spotlight (they are neat for sure!), but the way this entire planned community is meant to 'interact' at grade is choppy, contains much glass and dead zones, and will very likely be worsened by poor retail leasing decisions.

It's clear to some extent, there was an active attempt here to make Sugar Wharf mirror the sensibilities of a suburb, in a city setting. It's after all, kindof the anti-thesis to the things being done The Well, Mirvish Village, 88 Queen etc. and I feel this is bad, there should be an effort to make the waterfront feel like a truly public amenity, yet I don't see a destination to be had, many will continue to opt for Queen Street, or to chill at Trinity Bellwoods.

I'm reminded of About Here's video about Vancouver's waterfront.(Mainly the idea of these spaces seemly are designed as a psuedo front yard for those living.)

I name A-a specifically because they tend lean into suburban cotemporary. For them it's neat and tidy, yet that's not what makes it urban living. It's the sensibility of a firm that continues idolizing outdated urban renewal ideas (in some ways to a socially problematic degree); a firm where warmth (warth doesn't only come from the colour of brick you choose!) or whimsy are a needless 'thrill'. That review may sound harsh, but for a firm run by a guy who makes these types of over the top and behind the back comments, criticism here is fair (and I'm not even being comparatively as harsh!). But overall, this is just how architecture is globally at the moment, so I think i'm going a little too deep into specifics here.

I say this not for doom and gloom, but as something to watch as the waterfront develops east, future parcels are seeing more innovation and new ideas, and I expect in the long haul those may be the spaces people talk about loving and spending a lot of time in. I may also just need copium because I want to see more ideas like The Well or Mirvish Village applied to some parcel on this part of the waterfront.
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I wish there was a /feature comment mechanic on this board...as this one really hits it all the way home, IMO. Thank you for that. /bows
 
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