Towered
Senior Member
It's been finished for a few weeks now.
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It's been finished for a few weeks now.
Jaye101
Active Member
A D grade? Really?
I think when the original poster asked for a grade he was talking about the operation of the line, not the co-ordination of construction or necessarily even the design of the avenue.
While St. Clair and Spadina both do suffer from similar bunching issues, Spadina is overcapacity at peak and during PM rush does not usually pick up people north of College going northbound. It's very troubling that this is the case on such a new line. Combine that with its slow speed, and a failure to implement a proof of payment system and signal priority to the line and I would give the Spadina Streetcar LRT a grade of C+ in operation. The line still moves a lot of people despite all of these downfalls, and does not bunch to the extent of total dysfunction (501).
St. Clair is the second busiest streetcar line in the city per kilometer (to Spadina), issues with this line are primarily in a schedule that is too tight that encourages the bunching of streetcars. Yes there is no signal priority but the traffic/transit signals on St. Clair are much further apart than Spadina and the effect on the speed of this line are low. It seems that along the route the signals are organized so that streetcars get greens, however from what I know the lights can only predict one streetcar approaching at any given time and due to bunching issues the second one usually gets a red. However the line still operates well even considering the lack of true signal priority and a proof of payment system, partly because unlike Spadina the lights on St. Clair are distanced further apart and the line experiences less crowding. I'd give the line a grade of a B.
The TTC for some reasons schedules its streetcars like buses, and the trouble with schedules is that they assume how fast a particular vehicle is traveling rather than the functionality of the entire line. The TTC should manage lines like St. Clair and Spadina by scheduling the headways. This ensures to a certain extent that nobody along the line will experience significant bunching though the downfall would be that the speed of the line would decrease, in the end the riders experience is more pleasant. Many of the problems is the sheer number of vehicles on the line, once the new streetcars arrive the entire dynamic of streetcar lines throughout the city will change. The capacity of the new streetcars is completely incomparable to buses on any level and the proof of payment system that will be implemented will transform some existing streetcar routes into what some would call "LRT" routes. So the problems of overcrowding on Spadina, lack of POP and even to a certain extent time loss due to lack of signal priority are all gone.
That's just my 2 cents.
junctionist
Senior Member
The ROW project deserves a D. There are some glaring problems in several areas:
In terms of transit functionality, the service remains slow despite a large investment and plenty of disruptions to the communities it passes. Stops are still very frequent and there is no signal priority for no good reason. It gives a person good reason to be skeptical that the same people at the TTC and City of Toronto can build a first-rate LRT system.
In terms of roadway functionality, the street is narrower, there are no bike lanes. St. Clair is now only has one lane in each direction between Old Weston Rd and Keele.
In terms of aesthetics, the frequent centre poles detract from the buried overhead wires. The clusters of big yellow framed traffic signals at intersections aren't very attractive.
It achieves some improvements but with obvious compromises at virtually every turn.
In terms of transit functionality, the service remains slow despite a large investment and plenty of disruptions to the communities it passes. Stops are still very frequent and there is no signal priority for no good reason. It gives a person good reason to be skeptical that the same people at the TTC and City of Toronto can build a first-rate LRT system.
In terms of roadway functionality, the street is narrower, there are no bike lanes. St. Clair is now only has one lane in each direction between Old Weston Rd and Keele.
In terms of aesthetics, the frequent centre poles detract from the buried overhead wires. The clusters of big yellow framed traffic signals at intersections aren't very attractive.
It achieves some improvements but with obvious compromises at virtually every turn.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Thanks Jaye101 for bringing that up. Just to clarify, I wanted to know what letter grade should be given for the OPERATION of the St Clair ROW line
drum118
Superstar
C and D are still my grade on operation as you either have all the cars at one end of the line or the other. Then there is the bunching.
Phase 1 that has been in service for a few years is a C+ or C- depending on the day of the week. The shortest trip between the 2 subways has been 6.45 minutes. The longest has been 25 minutes.
One trip from Lansdowne to Yonge was 25 minutes while another was 55 minutes. Schedule calls for 22 minutes with a driver showing me his timetable.
Phase 1 that has been in service for a few years is a C+ or C- depending on the day of the week. The shortest trip between the 2 subways has been 6.45 minutes. The longest has been 25 minutes.
One trip from Lansdowne to Yonge was 25 minutes while another was 55 minutes. Schedule calls for 22 minutes with a driver showing me his timetable.
Jaye101
Active Member
There are going to be inconsistencies in the line as long as there are so many vehicles. The only reason why I think that trip took 55 minutes was due to a line at St. Clair W Station as that car was probably the last car in a four car bunch (imagine if 2 four car bunches one eastbound the other westbound get caught in SCW at the same time, ouch). The thing is that during rush there are 18 cars on the line, so three or four car bunches still don't come more than 10 mins apart even in the worst case (during rush). However, this still means that there are problems with the schedules/operation of the line that could easily be fixed, but with this many vehicles its a little impractical to expect there not to be any bunching whatsoever. In the end even with bunching this line is still much faster than it was before, and much faster than Spadina. I still believe the TTC should be managing these lines on headways rather that schedules.
kettal
Banned
Absolutely 100% correct. What good is a schedule if it's never on time?
Couple headway scheduling with GPS tracking for smart-phones, and everybody wins!
SlickFranky
Active Member
My only complaint is with the lack of signal priority. All of the bunching, speed, and frequency issues come back to this. People seem to be suggesting there is some priority in use, but I haven't found that to be the case at all. I'm pretty sure the strings of greens you've coasted through were by pure coincidence. Going to all the trouble and expense of building a ROW and not providing full signal management is unacceptable. This is not Spadina, there are no intersecting high-capacity routes that would be interrupted here. There is no excuse.
Apart from that I have no complaints whatsoever.
I didn't really use the line pre-ROW...for those giving the new operation a failing grade, how do you feel it compares to the old 512?
Apart from that I have no complaints whatsoever.
I didn't really use the line pre-ROW...for those giving the new operation a failing grade, how do you feel it compares to the old 512?
Lilibet
Active Member
Completion date for phase IV...?
The ongoing topic in this section has been about the completed section up to Lansdowne but living west of there I'm still subjected to having to transfer to a bus, which frankly at this time of year with the temperatures we've been experiencing is a right PITA I haven't seen any crews working on this section anytime I've been travelling along there (which I admit has been infrequent as I have come to dislike the whole bus transfer business) and cannot find any satisfactory information through TTC except "to be completed 2010." It really does feel like we've been left out in the cold in the wild, wild west of St. Clair.
Is there anyone out there who can shed some light on the seeming lack of progress?
The ongoing topic in this section has been about the completed section up to Lansdowne but living west of there I'm still subjected to having to transfer to a bus, which frankly at this time of year with the temperatures we've been experiencing is a right PITA
I haven't seen any crews working on this section anytime I've been travelling along there (which I admit has been infrequent as I have come to dislike the whole bus transfer business) and cannot find any satisfactory information through TTC except "to be completed 2010." It really does feel like we've been left out in the cold in the wild, wild west of St. Clair.Is there anyone out there who can shed some light on the seeming lack of progress?
Jaye101
Active Member
Spring 2010 according to the city's website, probably around late March-April? The city has decided not to continue construction into the winter as concrete poured in the winter deteriorates faster. The only thing really left to construct is Gunns loop. They should have Oakwood loop open around the same time, I wouldn't see why not.
Nope, it seems much too consistent, and I believe there have been other reports I'll try to confirm this. In addition to this there is now a special light sequence to allow streetcars to turn left onto Lansdowne before any left/U turn signals to Earlscourt loop. But I agree with you that it is completely unacceptable for any ROWs to be in operation without full signal priority.
My only complaint is with the lack of signal priority. All of the bunching, speed, and frequency issues come back to this. People seem to be suggesting there is some priority in use, but I haven't found that to be the case at all. I'm pretty sure the strings of greens you've coasted through were by pure coincidence. Going to all the trouble and expense of building a ROW and not providing full signal management is unacceptable. This is not Spadina, there are no intersecting high-capacity routes that would be interrupted here. There is no excuse.
Apart from that I have no complaints whatsoever.
I didn't really use the line pre-ROW...for those giving the new operation a failing grade, how do you feel it compares to the old 512?
Nope, it seems much too consistent, and I believe there have been other reports I'll try to confirm this. In addition to this there is now a special light sequence to allow streetcars to turn left onto Lansdowne before any left/U turn signals to Earlscourt loop. But I agree with you that it is completely unacceptable for any ROWs to be in operation without full signal priority.
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Lilibet
Active Member
Thanks for the update Jaye101, however, I'm not sure I understand the city's logic behind suspending construction for the reason given when they appeared to be working on the rest of the ROW all year round.
Then again, I don't understand how they can justify calling it a "Right of Way" when, as argued throughout this thread, the almighty car making it's left turn or U-turn is given priority, or "right of way"...
Having it's own set of raised tracks does not a right of way make.Lame, very lame.
CDL.TO
Moderator
If you want to get technical about it, that's exactly what makes something a right-of-way.
But I'll toss in my agreement that there are too many stops, too many intersections, and there should be some form of signal priority.
Lilibet
Active Member
BMO
Senior Member
well this seems a little extreme, I mean, regardless of whether the ROW has full signal priority it is sure to be faster than being stuck behind cars making lefts turns and the like, plus the capacity is automatically increased, if not through the frequency of the streetcars, but the sheer fact that more streetcars can fit on to the empty ROW than before. St. Clair isn't Sheppard East, the dynamics and complexity of the neighbourhood, would not be served well by a true LRT. In Scarborough there is hardly a street-life on Sheppard, so there is no need for it to stop frequently. as oppossed to St. CLair which is teeming with streetlife. As someone mentioned earlier the more frequent stops prevents any one stop from being overcapacitated.
Jaye101
Active Member
^^ I agree with you completely, I don't know why anyone is complaining about this route having too many stops when the spacing is pretty much perfect the way it is for the reasons you've stated. I also agree with everything you said, the St. Clair and Spadina Streetcar LRTs are very effective, but to spend all that money building the route to work with priority signaling and not implementing it is ridiculous - especially on Spadina. That route is so frustrating to even ride, I can only imagine how the operators feel.
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